Yet it is also one of the most powerful weapons to use in PvE.

[i]Laughs in Jotunn[/i]

Not every one has RNJesus's blessing you know........................................

My point was that it is a great PvP weapon that you must earn through PvE. You've got to get 1k through PvE yet it is fantastic in Gambit. It's almost like they are all a part of a single game.

Riven can be killed by simply learning mechanics (which can be easily skipped and melt her in 7 seconds) Jotuun can be found doing forges, the PvE difficulty equivalent to a VIP patrol. Also, these are both exotics while Recluse/MT are legendary. Any player capable of earning the Recluse/MT easily has more than enough skill to get both of these weapons. But let’s be honest for a second here; PvE players often aren’t on par in terms of gunskill with PvP players. The content just doesn’t require it (not anymore at least). PvE enemies don’t have strategy; they aren’t dynamic thinking entities; they just get farmed from spawn points. Players memorize mechanics and spawn points and that gets you through. That doesn’t get you through in PvP though; players react to your actions in ways you can’t predict easily (most of the time). You can’t brute force your way to these guns. Wipe 100 times on Riven before the kill and 1k is still a 10% chance; you haven’t lost any progress towards earning it. Lose 1 match in comp and you might as well have not won the last one because you’ve lost progress. Lose 2 games in a row? Might as well call it for the night before you lose more than you’ve earned; clearly there’s a problem with your team. Yeah, getting Fabled honestly isn’t hard, but neither is Crown of Sorrow, and if something like the pre-nerf NF was the raid exotic, you know for a fact that many PvP players would be mad they had to raid to get that gun that so clearly dominates the meta. But they could easily learn the mechanics and spawns within a night. It’s significantly harder to learn how to hold your own in PvP; there’s too many variables to get to Fabled-tier skill in 1 night. So no, the examples you’ve given are not equivalent to the PvE Recluse/MT situation.

To keep it short I'll go back to the argument that the best weapons should be the most difficult to get. ....even though recluse isn't difficult. On to the whole PvP players complaining about raid exotics being locked in raids...no. I remember when the most OP weapon in the crucible was a raid exotic and people weren't crying over it being a raid drop. They were -blam!- because they only had 3 chances a week to get it. Obviously ready and eager to play the raid even more so they could get their hands on an insane PvP weapon.

You obviously didn’t listen much back in the original Mythoclast days. I was lucky enough to have it for 3 days before the nerf and in that time, the number of players I came across who complained that they couldn’t do the raid was astounding. And their complaints were honestly pathetic; they couldn’t do the raid because they didn’t have the light level because all they played was PvP; something they could fix by actually playing PvE regardless of your skill in it. And this was an Exotic. The best PvE loadout currently is 3 Legendary Crucible weapons. Pretty much none of the raid exotics are very useful anywhere, save a few niche uses for Anarchy in COS. Tarrabah is literally just a worse version of Recluse. I tend to believe the real issue is the lack of good PvE end game weapons, rather than the abundance of good PvP end game weapons.

No one complained about vex being the best PvP weapon only obtainable from hard raid. Players were upset about RNG and only getting 3 chances a week. Pinnacle weapons are different. They're guaranteed through quest meaning you just have to put time and effort into the quest to obtain them instead of waiting to be blessed.

Your sentiments about pinnacle weapon quests just requiring time and effort are nice, except they’re not true. For everything but Crucible pinnacles, yes. But crucible pinnacles are unique in that you can more easily lose progress than gain it. You can literally queue into a strike blindfolded and be guaranteed to finish it with more progress towards a Vanguard pinnacle. Let’s do some math to see how an average player fares in the Comp playlist as a comparison to the ease of earning other pinnacles. The perfectly average player gets exactly as many kills as deaths. There are the same number of players in the playlist worse than this player as there are those better. This player has a 1.0 KD and a win ratio of 50%. With these stats and using the rate of rep earned from wins/losses at different ranks, we can calculate how many games the average player can expect to play to earn these weapons. And we get a number of just over 400 games in order to hit Fabled. Now obviously there are players that are above average and will win more than 50%, but there are just as many players below average who will lose more than 50% and will take even longer if they even make it at all. That’s just how averages work.

Actually time and effort is in fact true. All you did was make an excuse for the lower than average players who need to put in more effort than others to get the rewards. I hate to be the cancerous loser who says get good but that's really how it comes down to. Take highschool for example. Graduating is available to everyone who can meet the academic requirements. Some will breeze through while others struggle. Those who struggle and want to graduate work harder. Also winning in competitive nets you 80 points minimum. Losing is 60 points minimum. 80 once you get passed fable. However hitting fabled gets you a pinnacle weapon so even the average person can get it.

What hell-hole of a highschool did you attend where you could actually get negative points on an exam or assignment, would automatically get a -50% on every assignment that you didn’t score in the top half of the class on, and students who already passed the class could come into your exams and retake them making it even more likely you’d end up in the bottom half??? In case you don’t understand this analogy, in every comp match, a maximum of 4 players can actually earn glory points from the match while everyone else loses points, taking away from the progress they’ve earned from previous matches. In a comp match, you can do amazing and go on a 99 kill streak but still lose because your opponents did just a sliver better, meaning that, despite playing like an absolute god, you actually lose progress instead of gain any. And players who have already earned these pinnacles often take them back into lower comp brackets just to farm players who are still trying to earn theirs. Also, your number on rep gain are wrong. The amount of rep you gain decreases as your rank increases. By Heroic, you’re only getting 60 rep for a win and losing 52 for a loss. That’s only a margin of 8.

I think the point he’s trying to make is that they are 2 of the best pve weapons in the game. They both are heavily relied on in raids and other pve content and the only way to get them is comp pvp. Which is tough for a lot of pve players. I get both sides of the argument. You gotta look at it from other perspectives.

Sure but I’m going to circle back around to saying they are crucible weapons that happen to be good in pve. That’s like people complaining that you have to play strikes to get loaded question.

Not even close to an equivalent task... Tell me, at what point in my strike grind do I suddenly get up against enemies that are oddly significantly outside my skill range? At what point during my Strike grind does failing a strike start removing progress from my quest? At what point during my strike grind does having my friend disconnect result in what is essentially an instant failure of the strike and loss of progress? At what point in my strike grind do I get disconnected from a strike we could easily win and lose progress because of it? At what point in my strike grind do players that already have the Loaded Question come into my strike and actively impede my progress towards earning it myself and result in me losing progress? At what point during my strike grind can I play 5 strikes and leave with less progress towards the Loaded Question than I started with? At. What. Point? The abundance of players who earned the Revoker this season is clear evidence that players aren’t upset about having to play Comp; they just don’t like the ability to lose progress on their quests. Interesting how they’re removing the ability to lose progress towards the Wendigo and no one seems to have a problem with it. But suggest a way to get a Crucible pinnacle without the fear of losing progress and you’ll have the entire PvP community at your throat.