You statement still doesn't make sense then. You want the sleeper nerfed; is it because you cant get the kill with a sleeper? Is that it? My idea is to beat a sleeper is to use one. If you are doing so much better with all the other weapons, then use them and get the kill. The only thing I can think of is, your a rocket launder kind of person because of the splash damage and/or cluster bombs to get kills.

Using sleeper to counter sleeper means there's no variety When 1 gun dominates the weapon slot [u]it is a problem[/u]

How so? You have the option to use other weapons. It only dominates the weapon slot if you allow it too. You are the one that is in control of what weapons are in your slot, not bungie. Like I said, using a sleeper to counter a sleeper is my thought. Doesn't mean I have to equip it, but if you choose to thats on you.

[quote]How so?[/quote]How is 1 weapon completely outclassing all others a problem? Lol, is that a serious question? [quote]You have the option to use other weapons.[/quote]LOL yeah and be at a severe disadvantage, you have the option to use double sidearm in pvp too, doesn't mean it's a remotely good idea. [quote]It only dominates the weapon slot if you allow it too. You are the one that is in control of what weapons are in your slot, not bungie.[/quote]No, it dominates the weapkns slot because it's a 1hk from any range without travel time or necessary precision hit, that's why it dominate the weapon slot, not because "You allow it too" lol [quote]Like I said, using a sleeper to counter a sleeper is my thought. Doesn't mean I have to equip it, but if you choose to thats on you.[/quote] Again when the only way to counter a weapon is to use it that's a problem, sleeper completely outclasses all other weapons in gambit, if you use it you can compete if you don't you put yourself at a handicap, that needs to change.

You took too much time to break my post up to respond to every line to make a point and your point is still moot. The sleeper has always been an OP weapon since D1 and it should be an OP weapon. Get good is all I have to say to you.

[quote]You took too much time to break my post up to respond to every line to make a point and your point is still moot.[/quote]It isn't, you're factually wrong lol, so wrong in fact that even bungie recognize what you fail to. [quote]The sleeper has always been an OP weapon since D1 and it should be an OP weapon.[/quote]Do you know the difference between pve and PvP? I hope so, in pve sleeper can be superpowered and awesome, for pvp it wasn't a problem eitheras you only got heavy once per match and didn't have player icons nor an overshield. In gambit however you have plenty of heavy, an overshield, tracking icons all on a 1 hit kill from any range, no travel time and non precision hit weapon. It's broken there. Fact. [quote]Get good is all I have to say to you.[/quote] LMAO, you are probably garbage at this game kid, hence why you're trying to stop them from nerfing a broken weapon you probably crutch with, it's pathetic you'd even try to tell me to get good while you sit there sqwaking that a weapon with all that is somehow balanced when nothing else comes close. LMAO

Son, let me tell you something. If bungie nerfs it, it will be nerfed in pve also and yes I do know the difference little boy. I dont use the sleeper all that much. Mostly the whisper and nope I am not garbage at the game. Im not that good a pvp that is all, but I dont cry about it. I'll say it again... Get good. Btw, your mom told me to remind you to take the garbage out.

[quote]Son, let me tell you something. [/quote]Old man learn to open those ears ok? [quote]If bungie nerfs it, it will be nerfed in pve also[/quote]You have no idea if that's true, keep assuming things old timer [quote]and yes I do know the difference little boy.[/quote]Apparatly not scrub because sleeper wasn't op in D1 in any way in pvp, which is the main discussion point in its use for gambit [quote]I dont use the sleeper all that much. Mostly the whisper[/quote]Yeah I'm sure, you just use sleeper in gambit then? Rofl [quote]and nope I am not garbage at the game. Im not that good a pvp that is all, but I dont cry about it. I'll say it again... Get good.[/quote]You've got a .6 (kills and assists) with 40% win loss, don't tell anyone to get good ever lol, for each kill you somehow gain you die at least twice. Hahaha [quote]Btw, your mom told me to remind you to take the garbage out.[/quote]LELLLLLL the true response of a trash can that's been completely owned, I think you've suffered enough though so I won't go on, remember next time you form some dumbass opinion just how easy it is to get called out on

yawn, didn't I say I wasn't good a pvp. I never made a clam I was good at pvp. I just dont cry like you are. Do you think I care about my KDR? Nope, but I will keep telling you to get good because it triggers you. Be careful little snowflake, the weather is warm and you might melt. Also, if you have been around since D1 (and no Im not desperate enough too look up your stats) then you would know when bungie nerfs something, its nerfed in the entire game. If you make heavy ammo drops less, then it will be less for all heavy weapons. Lastly, you didn't call me out on anything. Your just mad because you keep getting wreaked by players that use the sleeper and just to dumb to figure a way to combat against it. If you have it, you have the same option to use it like everyone else.

[quote]yawn, didn't I say I wasn't good a pvp. I never made a clam I was good at pvp. I just dont cry like you are. Do you think I care about my KDR? Nope, but I will keep telling you to get good because it triggers you. Be careful little snowflake, the weather is warm and you might melt.[/quote]LEL SATING GET GOOD TO SOMEONE WHOS FAR BETTER THEN YOU EVER WILL BE. LELELELELEL [quote]Also, if you have been around since D1 (and no Im not desperate enough too look up your stats) then you would know when bungie nerfs something, its nerfed in the entire game. If you make heavy ammo drops less, then it will be less for all heavy weapons.[/quote]Really? Because I seem to recall for every pvp nerf that hit pve they buffed another form of it. Example: In age of triumph shotguns stopped doing crit damage, to make up for it bungie buffed shotgun damage in pve by 20% Or they nerf it so it directly effects pvp Example: Skorris artifact making trials into a gamemode of just supers, bungie change it so you need to get a kill for it to charge and it lasts a minute of charge time unless you get another, no effect in pve due to adds or regular pvp [quote]Lastly, you didn't call me out on anything. Your just mad because you keep getting wreaked by players that use the sleeper and just to dumb to figure a way to combat against it. If you have it, you have the same option to use it like everyone else.[/quote]Wrong on all accounts, i dont get wreaked at all, in fact I kept a team with a 7 minute boss lead back till my randoms caught up by using easy mode sleeper, it's far to easy compared to everything else. I sure plan on abusing it but at least I have enough sense to see it's a problem. You got totally refuted in this one sided debate and offered zero counters whatsoever, in fact your reply was simply "use it yourself if it's so strong" (which is hilarious seeing as in this post you're talking about finding counters too it when you yourself agreed the only counter to sleeper was sleeper, way to go full tard) ignoring the fact that one weapon shouldn't outclass everything and then swapped to "get good" which was just an admission you can't argue. LOL @ getting owned both online and on the forums but then I shouldn't be surprised, if you can't figure out how to get one kill and not die another 2 times how on earth would you be able to argue with any form of logic?

No, I just dont feel like arguing that nothing should be nerfed. You can say all you want on how good you might be in PVP really doesn't impress me. By the use of all CAPS, I did trigger you.. hahaha Good for you, you used the sleeper to help your team win. If its such a bad thing, then why are you going to abuse it like you stated? Lastly, you have missed the point. I dont want anything nerfed. Shotguns, Grenade launchers, rocket launchers, SLEEPER, or anything else. It just this topic is about the sleeper. Bringing in your so called PVP skills and saying you know what is best is funny.. I mostly play PVE, so what ever happens in the PVP realm does effect my game. Lastly, I'm not getting owned in the forums and once again how does having higher KDR make you a better person? It just means you play more PVP. Good for you, however I can see your logic. Just because you have a higher KDR that you can throw around insults to make your point. So your point it still moot and you lose.

[quote]No, I just dont feel like arguing that nothing should be nerfed. You can say all you want on how good you might be in PVP really doesn't impress me. By the use of all CAPS, I did trigger you.. hahaha Lastly, you have missed the point. I dont want anything nerfed. Shotguns, Grenade launchers, rocket launchers, SLEEPER, or anything else. It just this topic is about the sleeper. [/quote]Games need balance, in pvp certainly and in pve as well or else people melt bosses without doing thier mechanics (Like they did in poe with gally), otherwise boss health pools need to be adjusted to that strong weapon and all diversity goes and it's becomes a must use which isn't healthy for the game. Changes happen, you'll have to get over them, so far there's no evidence sleeper is being touched in any negative way for pve or pvp so calm down. [quote]Good for you, you used the sleeper to help your team win. If its such a bad thing, then why are you going to abuse it like you stated?[/quote] I'm going to abuse it because the other team will be doing the same and it's fun slaughtering pretty helpless players whom you can see exact locations with such a powerhouse weapon. That does not mean I can't recognize what I'm using is cheap and totally blows out all other weapons. [quote]Bringing in your so called PVP skills and saying you know what is best is funny.. I mostly play PVE, so what ever happens in the PVP realm does effect my game.[/quote]Leta remember who brought skills up, it was you, not me, I was happy to let the discussion go to points but you don't have a leg to stand on there because you yourself recognize sleeper is the undisputed king so your "counter" was "get good" [quote]Lastly, I'm not getting owned in the forums and once again how does having higher KDR make you a better person? It just means you play more PVP. Good for you, however I can see your logic. Just because you have a higher KDR that you can throw around insults to make your point. So your point it still moot and you lose.[/quote] Anyone reading this will clearly tell my points are valid and factual, whike yours have literally been "get good" which is basically a cope out to admitting you can't argue the point and "just use sleeper also" which actually proves mine. I hope sleeper remains a powerhouse in pve and pvp, however as is it's beyond broken for gambit My own suggestion would be to remove player icons, without that knowledge sleeper remains a strong gear but not one that knows everything and can blast teams repeatedly and wipe them (I wiped them twice over one round) Others I've seen are no invader heavy, disabling sleeper in gambit, limiting it's ammo pick up in gambit and kills with heavy causing far less boss healing then with special or primary. Non of which adversely affect it in other areas of the game

I didn’t bring skill up, you did by bring up my stats. All you did was to try to prove a point that your so much better and bring up KDR is a sad way to do it. If you think get good is a high KDR, then that’s sad. But maybe your high KDR is because of the sleeper? So remember, I didn’t bring up KDR stats into this. Just because I die more then get kills could be simply I have gotten double teamed by someone because when I do pvp (just to get the bounties) I go in solo. So I’m not a big pvp player. What I mean about get good is to learn how to use cover, not stay out in the open. Learn how to out smart your enemy. If you were in a real life battle, you wouldn’t be running out in the open. You wouldn’t be ignoring cover. Just because you say the sleeper is OP, doesn’t make it so. Maybe your tactics are bad. Again, nothing should be nerfed. Just improve your tactics.

[quote]What I mean about get good is to learn how to use cover, not stay out in the open. Learn how to out smart your enemy. If you were in a real life battle, you wouldn’t be running out in the open. You wouldn’t be ignoring cover.[/quote]This is beyond obvious and how most people play, get good doesn't exactly work if the person you say it to is already good... [quote]Just because you say the sleeper is OP, doesn’t make it so.[/quote]It is for gambit, that's fact, not something I say, it's the only weapon that has unlimited range, 1hk, no travel time and doesn't require a crit, even those wanting sleeper not to be nerfed recognize it's far too strong for gambit [quote]Maybe your tactics are bad. Again, nothing should be nerfed. Just improve your tactics.[/quote] We already established I'm a good player, obviously my "tactics" are fine, in fact so far I've lost a grand total of 1 gambit game due to it being vs a full team of 4, there's no tactic problem, the issue is having a easy mode gun that 1hks. Right now an invader has exact player locations with a insta-kill gun, your tactics involve either A) Trying to counter sleeper shoot him which only works if you first know where he is and second he isn't paying attention to you and didn't have pre-charge. B) Hiding the entire time the invader is there giving his team an extra 30 seconds to comeback or win. Neither of those are good strategies, particularly if you want to use another weapon. This weapon is too strong, no amount of "but you can counter if X, Y and Z all happen" can change that

First, we haven’t established your a good player. In your mind your a good player. Still doesn’t mean anything. You can state stats all you like, but I’m sure your stats are padded by using the sleeper. Here I still say, don’t nerf it. Sure hiding is a good tactic because it always seems like the invader will come to you. You can also see the invader because he is glowing red when In the open. Also seems like an invader will always goto your bank or close to it. If he is off in the distance, then snipe him. Just don’t stay in LOS for too long. Also your team can split off in different directions and circle. What I believe is you think running in the open and doing a spray and pray is a good tactic and since that isn’t happening and getting sniped by a sleeper means it’s not fair. I have used the whisper and it’s just as effective in gambit also. It’s an insta kill if your good with that.

[quote]First, we haven’t established your a good player. In your mind your a good player. Still doesn’t mean anything. You can state stats all you like, but I’m sure your stats are padded by using the sleeper. Here I still say, don’t nerf it.[/quote]Go check my stats guy, gambit stats aren't recorded in overall PvP, why don't you have a look and see? [quote]Sure hiding is a good tactic because it always seems like the invader will come to you. You can also see the invader because he is glowing red when In the open. Also seems like an invader will always goto your bank or close to it. If he is off in the distance, then snipe him. Just don’t stay in LOS for too long. Also your team can split off in different directions and circle.[/quote]You can hide then and give the enemy team 30 free seconds extra to catch up or win, great strategy. As for invaders only fools run in the open or push the bank which is in the middle, smart invader hug the sides and blast players from there Finally flanking doesn't exactly work on a player that sees exactly where you all are [quote]What I believe is you think running in the open and doing a spray and pray is a good tactic and since that isn’t happening and getting sniped by a sleeper means it’s not fair. I have used the whisper and it’s just as effective in gambit also. It’s an insta kill if your good with that.[/quote] Wrong on all accounts, I don't run in the open at all, as for whisper it indeed is a insta kill....except it requires critical hits which makes it balanced....something that sleeper does not

Last reply to you. I don’t care about your stats. I don’t care about my stats. I play to have fun. Now go somewhere else and brag about your stats to someone that might cares enough. Because I dont and you doing that just shows how arrogant you are and that makes you a bad player. Btw, I’m good with them taking the aim assist away in the sleeper. At least it isn’t a power nerf.

Keep ducking the real points kid. Fact is I'm already good and you're not, I advise staying away from telling others get good when you're rocking a beast .6 You had no counter to any points and were totally refuted, I'm glad anyone reading this conversation can clearly see why sleeper needs a gambit nerf and that's there's no defense to that

OK Haunter, you have shown how arrogant you are, good job. You get two thumbs up. Wow you sure can throw insults towards people when you know your losing. Your stat this, your stat that. Again, I dont care, I play to have fun. Yes, I guess I have a .6 from your observation. I dont know really because I dont look them up, dont know how too, dont care too. Please understand that. BTW, If you really need to know, I am good at playing Destiny. I help others through the content if they want assistance. Hence, I dont care about stats. I highly doubt you do the same since stats mean so much to you in your world. I suggest you take yourself and your stats to something like Quake Champions since that is nothing but DM and stats is everything. Destiny is a rounded out game. So boasting about your stats to prove a point about how a weapon should be nerfed doesn't hold its weight and I believe thats because it will ruin your KDR stats that you hold so high and mighty. We all know coming from D1 and all the nerfs that have been done was about power to a point that the weapon was useless in PVP, but also in PVE. In PVP, if your getting beaten by a certain weapon, then learn how to use it and not cry that its too powerful. Improve your defense. It isn't alway about being on the offense. It's PVP, use every advantage you can take. Once the meta changes for Gambit, you are going to cry that a different weapon is too powerful because you cant figure out how to get good with it and/or you don't have it so its unfair. PVP isn't supposed to be fair. Thats the point. The only thing people are seeing here is how arrogant and a toxic player you really are. How hard is it for you to understand that? So, GET GOOD! You have no real point and if you noticed, I said I am good with them toning down the aim assist, at least it isn't a power nerf and that is what most people dont want to happen, like myself. Lastly, I really dont want to come down to your level and start throwing insults. You dont know me IRL, you dont know what I do, hell you dont even know how old I am. Just as the same I dont know you. But did I start with insults? No, you did. Get good isn't a personal insult when its in a video game. You sucked me in when you started with the insults one time and then I stopped and keep the insults out. I highly suggest you do the same.

[quote]I believe thats because it will ruin your KDR stats that you hold so high and mighty.[/quote]If I've told you I've been destroying team with sleeper why would I care about it effecting my stats? If anything it's boosting them....no the reality is I can see there's a problem even if I abuse the gun and can destroy with it as well. Doesn't mean it's fair or balanced and I can tell that from how easily I'm wiping teams, it's too strong, takes no skill to use and completely breaks gambit as is[quote]We all know coming from D1 and all the nerfs that have been done was about power to a point that the weapon was useless in PVP, but also in PVE.[/quote]No we don't see that at all. In D1 like I stated and even gave examples in a previous reply each time they nerfed they also buffed or changes it in a way to not cause effect pve. From skorris artifact to shotguns all pvp nerfs that hit pve were balanced by pve buffs or changes[quote]In PVP, if your getting beaten by a certain weapon, then learn how to use it and not cry that its too powerful. Improve your defense. It isn't alway about being on the offense. It's PVP, use every advantage you can take.[/quote]Your logic is if its op use it, instead of having weapons balanced. That's both unhealthy for the game and make gameplay incredibly stale and boring. Especially if one doesn't like the weapon of the season. Balance should be an actual goal. Not "use it yourself if it's so good"[quote]Once the meta changes for Gambit, you are going to cry that a different weapon is too powerful because you cant figure out how to get good with it and/or you don't have it so its unfair.[/quote]Wrong no other gun is a non crit 1hk from any range with no travel time, so its highly unlikely anything will be as unbalanced sleeper[quote]PVP isn't supposed to be fair. Thats the point.[/quote]This may be the most ridiculous reply I've ever seen, pvp isn't supposed to be fair? On what planet??? As for counters your [u]only[/u] counters thus far have been "I don't want it nerfed" "get good" and "use it yourself" none of which are actual counter points to the fact that sleeper is a 1hk body hit from any range without travel time and packed alongside exact player locations and an overshield on top of it is far, far too strong.

Just watch this. It might give you some ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz3L-LKz4uk&feature=youtu.be

What part of I destroy in gambit wasn't clear? I don't lose to it, I simply recognize its beyond cheap and way to easy to slaughter a team. That vid was a waste of 5 mins. First he talks about bungie killing hand cannons in pve? False, fatebringer in Y1, Imago in Y2 and both in Y3 were perfect for all content. The first thing he shows is hiding behind a barrier (wasting time while the enemy catches up) then he hand cannons the moronic sleeper user who MISSES, no kidding you can counter a moroniv player, too bad there are actually smart sleeper users right? Ones who don't rush mid like that moron? Second why the sleeper user bothered with the titan hiding is beyond me, just slaughter his teammates while he crouches there and allows your team to win. Third his entire vid talks about if your a titan and he even admits if your a warlock or hunter your screwed - meaning even your support vid agree sleeper is too strong. Fact is sleeper is too strong for gambit, at best it makes you hide for 30 secs and at worst it allows an invader to wipe a team - sometimes twice without a single crit, range balance or travel time distance

Look, your just a legend in your own mind. Basically what your saying about destroying in Gambit just means your a toxic player and also have to make insults to try to make your point more valid. Why bring up your so called "skill" in pvp to make a point? Out side of the game maybe your just a lonely person and the only thing you have is video games. So please just stop with the insults towards other players. Makes you look bad and I am sure everyone else who has seen this thinks the same thing. Yes the guy in the video does say the sleeper is strong, but you also forgot to mention he said not to nerf it. I see you only take half of what is said and try to use it to make a point again. If you are able to wipe a whole team while invading, you dont stick around. You get teleported back. Well, that is what happened to me. Also, the sleeper is an exotic weapon. It should be powerful and shouldn't be on the same level as legendary weapons. I have never cried for a nerf on a weapon because I get killed by it many times. I see people use it, so I work on getting it and learn to use it. Soon, people are going to say the Ace of Spades is too powerful and it needs a nerf because they keep getting killed by it all the time. So stop and drop it. Bungie isn't going to nerf the power. Just the aim assist. So now it makes it harder if your not good a aiming to get the 1hk.

[quote]Look, your just a legend in your own mind. Basically what your saying about destroying in Gambit just means your a toxic player and also have to make insults to try to make your point more valid. Why bring up your so called "skill" in pvp to make a point? Out side of the game maybe your just a lonely person and the only thing you have is video games. So please just stop with the insults towards other players. Makes you look bad and I am sure everyone else who has seen this thinks the same thing.[/quote]Insults towards other players? That guy in the vid ran forward at the titan and sat in mid when there are at least 3 other enemies looking out for him, it was a moronic decision and sleeper in his hands isn't good, in any decent players hands it destroys with ease which is a problem, that has nothing to do with me. Just fact. Your one encounter you and that youtuber tried to showcase was vs a idiotic player pure and simple [quote]Yes the guy in the video does say the sleeper is strong, but you also forgot to mention he said not to nerf it. I see you only take half of what is said and try to use it to make a point again.[/quote]No. I said EVEN he said its strong, so he admits it's too powerful. This is the guy who is trying to defend sleeper, ofc he'll say not to nerf, but if he can even admit it's too strong you know anyone with a balanced point of view will definitely. [quote]If you are able to wipe a whole team while invading, you dont stick around. You get teleported back. Well, that is what happened to me.[/quote]You have 30 seconds. It takes around a second and a half to fire sleeper, 4 times say 15 secs. Respawning takes 5. 10 secs left to wipe them again since they spawn close to each other. A feat no other weapon can do without drawbacks. Example: sniper takes precision hits [quote]Also, the sleeper is an exotic weapon. It should be powerful and shouldn't be on the same level as legendary weapons.[/quote]It also shouldn't make every other weapon irrelevant. [quote]I have never cried for a nerf on a weapon because I get killed by it many times. I see people use it, so I work on getting it and learn to use it. Soon, people are going to say the Ace of Spades is too powerful and it needs a nerf because they keep getting killed by it all the time. So stop and drop it.[/quote]Ace of spades is not a 1hk is it? It's also got range penalties. Hardly op or will get complained about, especially since you're giving up the exotic slot. And it's not about how many times you die to the weapon. It's about if that weapon outclasses all others which in sleepers case does [quote]Bungie isn't going to nerf the power. Just the aim assist. So now it makes it harder if your not good a aiming to get the 1hk.[/quote] Bungie said they'd start with flinch, if it doesn't hurt the guns usage and unparalleled strength as I believe it won't they'll make more adjustments. One of 4 solutions I thought of would have helped but bungie went the wrong way about it as the usually do. 1. Invaders lose heavy 2. Sleeper requires a crit hit to one shot guardians. 3. Boss heals less with heavy kills and more with other weapons. 4. Remove player icons None of which would have hurt sleeper in any other mode.