[quote]Unveiling isn’t metaphorical. The Winnower speaks against the philosophy of the Witness, showing they aren’t the same. Plus the explanation of the Vex origin gives it credence as being literal. The only allegorical part of it is the physicality of the Garden and the occupants. The issue is we’ve operated under the assumption that the Gardner and Winnower are separate. Think about what the Witness said to the Traveler before going through the portal. About being a perpetrator and victim. Wouldn’t the Winnower be the perp? The Gardner the victim? Then there is how Unveiling is actually written. First person, you don’t quote your speech. Unless it’s a flash back. The conversations between the Gardner and Winnower are a flashback. Yet the Winnower’s lines aren’t quoted. In a first person format, you only do that when it’s you thinking. So the Winnower’s dialogue should be internal thoughts.[/quote] You seem to fundamentally just not understand the lore none of what you said is even true. The Winnower and Gardner fought each other, the traveler is being called perpetrator and victim because it creates life which makes it a perpetrator and its controlled by the light which means it has to follow the principle of making life which gives it no true free will (we are even told by Savathun in the Truths section that guardians are made by pure calculations not being special) which makes it a Victim of the universe

Where did you get the name of the Winnower from?

[quote]Where did you get the name of the Winnower from?[/quote] The unveiling lore book and its a metaphor for the darkness and the flower game is a metaphor for the game they play before the universe existed

I imagine either the Traveler=Gardener & Witness=Winnower or the Gardener and Winnower don’t exist. Bungie has said the Witness is the most powerful enemy in Destiny. I don’t think it’d make that much sense to have us fight the supposed big bad of the saga, only for someone else to be above it, and same with the Traveler and Gardener. I imagine they’re either 1 and the same, or some fancy story the Witness made up to try to get us to go along with its line of thinking.

If they are one and the same, they wouldn’t be an enemy we fight. That’s why the Witness is the big bad. Them being one and the same enables a simple and easy ending. Ulan-Tans theory of Symmetry. It’s the only theory that carried from D1 to D2 and they even put in a lost sector for it on the very planet they hinted the final showdown would be on. The lore is there to support the Gardner and Winnower existing and whatnot. Unveiling wasn’t much of an enticement, it was a threat. Like I pointed out, the Winnower denounced the Witnesses ideas. So how can that be an enticement.

1 thing that makes me think the Witness=Winnower is at the end of Unveiling, the Winnower says it'll come to us to hear our answer to its proposition. Then a few months later, the pyramids arrive, ofc led by the Witness. I just imagine for the end of the saga, they don't wanna add confusion by separating the Witness from the Winnower & Traveler from the Gardener.

I get that point but the Witness didn’t come to us, it came to the Traveler. It didn’t even try at all to communicate with anyone. It could of easily hijacked Ghost again, and that could of sealed it with a line or two. But then again, this is Bungie. The smart bet is them retconning it again lol

I mean, it literally did highjack our ghost and show us the conversation between Calus and it.

And what part of that was it communicating with us?

I mean it communicated to us during Shadowkeep, Arrivals, and Beyond Light. Shadowkeep- Taking over ghost in the pyramid and the doppelgänger Arrivals- Gave us a tree branch as a gift which we turned to ruinous effigy. Also, told us great power awaited us on Europa (stasis) Beyond Light- Sent a Ziggurat to Europa and lead us to it during the second mission