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Modifié par Zurreal :
10/26/2020 1:21:02 PM
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The problem with 600RPM autos aren't that they're easy to use (they are, and that part is fine) - the problem is the ease of use in combination with the superior TTK they offer. If you want some kind of balance in a game with different weapon types the easiest gun to use can't also be most effective one. They need to be one or the other.
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[quote]The problem with 600RPM autos aren't that they're easy to use (they are, and that part is fine) - the problem is the ease of use in combination with the superior TTK they offer. If you want some kind of balance in a game with different weapon types the easiest gun to use can't also be most effective one. They need to be one or the other.[/quote] Autos are not the best option just easier to use handcannons still kill faster if you hit and you bring up the new changes handcannons hit even harder and have an increased effective range which also opens up perks like rangefinder to extend it even further. Ease of use and reliability is not the same as lethality.
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600 autos currently kill faster than all primaries besides sidearms
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Modifié par Lord Ignatius : 10/27/2020 12:03:50 AM[quote]600 autos currently kill faster than all primaries besides sidearms[/quote] So because they kill 0.07 sec faster that makes the gap between a hand cannon and auto colossal? Combat don't even last .8 and nobody unless they cheating hits 8 headshots everytime. Not sayingbyou wrong and appreciate your input but I have an idea of how people feel and I'm just gonna stop. im tired of handcannon and shotgun metas which new light will be.
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It’s that combined with 600 autos being far more forgiving, handcannons being not forgiving at all, and autos out ranging handcannons atm (especially on console)
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[quote]It’s that combined with 600 autos being far more forgiving, handcannons being not forgiving at all, and autos out ranging handcannons atm (especially on console)[/quote] Hey its fine man I get what you saying and I'll leave it at that. If the community want another stupid handcannon/shotgun meta then so be it. It is what it is.
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Hand cannons doesn't kill faster than 600 RPM autos (with the exception of Eriana's Vow and The Last Word - but those are special cases). The fastest kill time on a hand cannon is the 150 RPM archetype - 0.8 seconds, which will be increased to 0.87 when Beyond Light lands. 600 RPM autos can kill in 0.7 seconds.
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[quote]Hand cannons doesn't kill faster than 600 RPM autos (with the exception of Eriana's Vow and The Last Word - but those are special cases). The fastest kill time on a hand cannon is the 150 RPM archetype - 0.8 seconds, which will be increased to 0.87 when Beyond Light lands. 600 RPM autos can kill in 0.7 seconds.[/quote] Those numbers are way off and you did not factor auto getting nerfed. Handcannons are not only getting more damage but an increased effective range so without testing I know for a fact it aint .87 which if its not rounded is still 8. You can't tell me beyond light ttk values and it ain't out 100% false and biased misinformation.
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Modifié par Zurreal : 10/26/2020 2:38:07 PMThey're not way off - they're actually very much on point. But no, I didn't factor them being nerfed. The new optimal TTK on 600 RPM:s will be ~0.79 seconds (it will require one more shot to kill, and all shots needs to be precision shots to achieve best TTK. So they will be a bit less forgiving). When they move 150 rpms to the 140 rpm bracket, yes, they will deal more damage per shot. That doesn't help at all though, it still requires 3 shots to kill - 140's today have 0.87 (and no, you don't 'round up' numbers when comparing time. 0.87 is slower than 0.8 no matter how you look at it). And yes, I can tell you the TTK values for Beyond light. All the numbers you need to do the math is available already. There is nothing biased about this.
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Modifié par Lord Ignatius : 10/26/2020 2:45:43 PM[quote]They're not way off but no, I didn't factor them being nerfed. The new optimal TTK on 600 RPM:s will be ~0.79 seconds (it will require one more shot to kill, and all shots needs to be precision shots to achieve best TTK. So they will be a bit less forgiving). When they move 150 rpms to the 140 rpm bracket, yes, they will deal more damage per shot. That doesn't help at all though, it still requires 3 shots to kill - 140's today have 0.87 (and no, you don't 'round up' numbers when comparing time. 0.87 is slower than 0.8 no matter how you look at it). And yes, I can tell you the TTK values for Beyond light. All the numbers you need to do the math is available already. There is nothing biased about this.[/quote] You aren't taking into account damage for ARs are down and didn't do that for your claim. You aren't factoring that with lower damage that means and even lower damage when out of effective range, the number complaint about 600s is the range so how are they going maintain that ttk when its not the same at every range????? The biggest issue with the ttk math is they base it off perfection not everyone hits crits and not everyone hits so the ttk is again not going to be the same and everyone ain't a pro. Again your math for handcannons doesn't facter EFFECTIVE RANGE which means the damage is not the same the ttk is off because handcannons all got an increased effective range. 140's hit harder 150s and with an increased effective range how the heck people figure the buff was a nerf?????? All math related to beyond light is just aZZumptions and aZZumptions are 100% off. Until beyond light is here beyond light aZZumptions are way off.
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When comparing TTK values you obviously do this within each weapons range - if you go outside of that the damage obiviously drops. And you definately doesn't account for missed bullets. I don't really know how I can explain any clearer but I'll try one last time: 150 RPM HC kills in 3 shots. 140 RPM HC kills in 3 shots. 140 RPM fires slower than a 150 RPM. Please read those 3 lines a few times.
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Modifié par Lord Ignatius : 10/26/2020 3:16:33 PM[quote]When comparing TTK values you obviously do this within each weapons range - if you go outside of that the damage obiviously drops. And you definately doesn't account for missed bullets. I don't really know how I can explain any clearer but I'll try one last time: 150 RPM HC kills in 3 shots. 140 RPM HC kills in 3 shots. 140 RPM fires slower than a 150 RPM. Please read those 3 lines a few times.[/quote] This doesn't change or shows how the handcannons are not getting stronger. Autos can miss to so don't make it like I am the only one didn't account for missimg neither did you. All hand cannons except 180s kill in 3 hits. If a gun is getting more damage and increased effective range how is that a nerf? Autos are going down from 15.75 to 14.25 how is this not enough? Beyond light isn't here so the current sandbox is irrelevant in regards to it. You cannot tell me with 100% accuracy what the meta is going to be based of stuff current in place when stuff is changing.
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Modifié par Zurreal : 10/26/2020 3:22:51 PMI meant that as a statement - We shouldn't account for missed bullets. And I'm not. Spare Rations kills in 0.8 seconds today. After Beyond light it will kill in 0.87 seconds. That's 0.07 seconds slower. Making a weapon killing slower is a nerf. I'm not saying the auto nerf isn't enough, it might be - but it might also not be. They'll still kill quicker than the fastest hand cannons (not counting previously mentioned special exotics). But unless they make them bumpier to use they'll still be one of the easiest weapons to hit your shots with.
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[quote]I meant that as a statement - We shouldn't account for missed bullets. And I'm not. Spare Rations kills in 0.8 seconds today. After Beyond light it will kill in 0.87 seconds. That's 0.07 seconds slower. Making a weapon killing slower is a nerf. I'm not saying the auto nerf isn't enough, it might be - but it might also not be. They'll still kill quicker than the fastest hand cannons (not counting previously mentioned special exotics). But unless they make them bumpier to use they'll still be one of the easiest weapons to hit your shots with.[/quote] Ok glad you cleared that up. All I'm saying is with what most people want they want the gun to be useless. If you nerf damage, effective range, and give it more recoil than ARs will just go back to being overglorified SMGs without smg speed and we'll have a similar situation when SMGs were better than ARs simply because they fired faster and aggressive frames hit harder than all except 360s which again would lose die to speed. Why even have ARs if people want them to worse than SMGs and give a halfasssed excuse as use skill when ARs aren't about skill? Before the buffs ARs were not good at all was competitively viable.
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That's a whole other discussion but since you brought it up: If we compare 600 RPM autos to 600 RPM SMG:s I do think that SMG:s in that case should deal more damage per bullet than their auto counterpart does. Because of the lack of range on SMG:s.
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Modifié par Lord Ignatius : 10/26/2020 2:48:42 PM140s now have lower effective range and heavy fall off compared to new light 140s and handcannons in general. The math is to going to be off by alot.
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Which hand cannons have a faster time to kill?
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[quote]Which hand cannons have a faster time to kill?[/quote] Are you seriously asking this or trolling? Litteraly every 150 thats why the whole archetype is being destroyed and its just sunshot, 150's ran the meta unchallenged until 600's came up. Thorn,dire promise,spare rations,Luna/NF , and many more. There is a reason 150 is in the meta and have been meta for the last 2 yrs since the big nerf to Luna/NF across all platforms and 180 nerf on console. Autos did not show up and invalidate 150's which have 90ish aim assist and is the reason the other handcannon have no place.
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Modifié par olderfella : 10/26/2020 1:54:07 PMHaha, you have no idea what you are talking about, 600 rpm autos have a faster time to kill then hand cannons. You have got to do a little research instead of thinking you know what you are talking about. Ohh, by the way, the problem with hand cannons was on pc yet there were blanket fixes for pc and console. When you get a little more experience in this game you will find that there are 2 sandboxes present in Destiny the pc sandbox and the console sandbox and anytime there is a blanket fix one of the sandboxes gets even more broken.
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[quote]Haha, you have no idea what you are talking about, 600 rpm autos have a faster time to kill then hand cannons. You have got to do a little research instead of thinking you know what you are talking about. Ohh, by the way, the problem with hand cannons was on pc yet there were blanket fixes for pc and console. When you get a little more experience in this game you will find that there are 2 sandboxes present in Destiny the pc sandbox and the console sandbox and anytime there is a blanket fix one of the sandboxes gets even more broken.[/quote] You are entitled to your opinion but those opinions are not facts and your alternative facts are not facts either.
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Not accepting the facts does not make them go away.
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[quote]Not accepting the facts does not make them go away.[/quote] Alternative facts are not facts. Just a well explained lie.
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Modifié par Facelauss : 10/26/2020 5:10:56 PMIma just post a comment
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Not accepting the facts does not make them go away.
