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4/1/2016 3:36:07 PM
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Americans seem to confuse it on a regular basis with social democracy.
Bernie Sanders is a social democrat, not a democratic socialist. Socialist means you are anti-capitalist, which Sanders clearly isn't.
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So why does he include the word socialist in his self proclaimed title? And what does the word [i]democrat[/i] relevant in economic function? You can have a perfectly socialist, democratic country. He's come up with this bullshit title so that people won't be scared of him because he's a socialist. And you're mistaking socialism for communism in terms of capitalism.
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[quote]So why does he include the word socialist in his self proclaimed title?[/quote] This is a good question actually. I suspect it's because the term has been twisted to such a degree that it is now perceived as being the same as social democracy, but that doesn't matter because definitions don't change. [quote]what does the word democrat relevant in economic function?[/quote] This stems from the idea that democracy is the road to true socialism, as advocated by Karl Marx. It also come from the idea in many socialist circles that you cannot actually have a democracy under the capitalist system. [quote]He's come up with this bullshit title so that people won't be scared of him because he's a socialist.[/quote] Well I expect it would have quite the opposite effect, I don't think labelling himself as a socialist will do him much good in america. [quote]you're mistaking socialism for communism in terms of capitalism.[/quote] Definitely not. Socialism and communism are very similar in terms of principles but there are a lot of different types. Nevertheless, they both advocate against private ownership over the means of production and for social/common ownership. True socialism does not simply involve reforming the capitalist system as Bernie advocates.
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Well said logfish. I'm personally very tired of the term's misuse.
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Modifié par Spartan 22O : 4/2/2016 6:18:32 PM[quote][quote]So why does he include the word socialist in his self proclaimed title?[/quote][/quote] [quote]This is a good question actually. I suspect it's because the term has been twisted to such a degree that it is now perceived as being the same as social democracy, but that doesn't matter because definitions don't change.[/quote]He might as well call himself a socialist because socialism is totally democratically possible. [quote][quote]what does the word democrat relevant in economic function?[/quote][/quote] [quote]This stems from the idea that democracy is the road to true socialism, as advocated by Karl Marx. It also come from the idea in many socialist circles that you cannot actually have a democracy under the capitalist system.[/quote]If you're referring to Marxist communism then you're totally wrong. Marxist communism requires a revolution and then a dictatorship to guide the movement. [quote][quote]He's come up with this bullshit title so that people won't be scared of him because he's a socialist.[/quote][/quote] [quote]Well I expect it would have quite the opposite effect, I don't think labelling himself as a socialist will do him much good in america.[/quote]Thats the thing, [i]hes not[/i]. He calls himself a [i]Social Democrat[/i]. And people are going to think that means something else, which is why he says it. He knows coming out as the socialist he is will damage him. [quote][quote]you're mistaking socialism for communism in terms of capitalism.[/quote][/quote] [quote]Definitely not. Socialism and communism are very similar in terms of principles but there are a lot of different types. Nevertheless, they both advocate against private ownership over the means of production and for social/common ownership. True socialism does not simply involve reforming the capitalist system as Bernie advocates.[/quote]Socialism can include private ownership, communism cannot. If there is private ownership, then it's not communism. As long as there's any sort of private ownership, the free market exists, hence Sanders' position.
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Modifié par Kazimierz lll : 4/1/2016 10:19:40 PMAhhhh the return of logfish, so many people taking him seriously XD
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Yeah, he's [i]pretty[/i] anti-capitalist.
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According to whom? Did I miss the part where Bernie advocated for the replacement of capitalism with an alternative system of governance? I don't think I did. He is taking measures to reform the capitalist system in order to make it more 'user friendly' so to speak, but in no way do his positions suggest anything further than that.
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Redistribution of wealth is anti capitalist
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So? Fuсk capitalism.
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Capitalism has brought people out of poverty more than any other system
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Yet Sweden, a prime example of Western socialism, has about 1% of its population living in poverty, while our lovely capitalist America has about 14.5% of the population in poverty. Try again.
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Modifié par Logfish111 : 4/2/2016 10:45:11 AMSweden is still capitalist last time I checked. Do they have private control over the means of production? If yes then they are capitalist. Sweden is a social democracy in terms of political ideology.
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Sweden is collapsing try again
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It has also put more in it
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No government melding has
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There's no difference bud
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Well he does classify himself as a democratic socialist. So until he changes how he defines himself we can look at him as such.
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Well that's rather silly. Just because someone says they are something doesn't make it true. You have to look at their actual policy positions.
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So then by your logic what candidates say is automatically the opposite and has no meaning or impact? In other words if bernie or hillary, trump you name it says "I am a KKK member" then its automatically not true and should be dismissed? That makes no sense. If they are self describing themselves then someone who hears it shouldn't think the opposite of what they said. I mean if hillary said she was a jew hating [url=http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]-godwinslaw!-[/url] that would have no impact whatsoever because she hasnt shown any indication of it in the past?
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[quote]So then by your logic what candidates say is automatically the opposite and has no meaning or impact?[/quote] No. I'm saying that in this specific case it's clearly untrue. Facts are facts and one cannot simply change the definition of something just to suit themselves. Objectively speaking, Bernie is not a socialist.
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So if my platform position was to ban all guns, raise taxes on everyone, bring every single deployed troop home, create socialized healthcare, and raise the minimum wage to $15/hour but I called myself a conservative. Would you still want to call me conservative? It seems much more wise to judge a person on their actions rather than what they claim to be.
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Apples to oranges he claims to be a socialist and his policies are socialist
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Reagan supported social security, a socialist plan. Does that make Reagan a socialist because he supported socialist ideas?
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No reagan saved social security from going under he didn't believe in it. The thing is and I agree, people have been paying into it for years they deserve what they invested but I don't agree with social security otherwise
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Okay, I can see why you'd take that stance, but that was just one example. What about all the other social things we have? Roads, military, firefighters. Those are all social programs as well. Is anyone who supports firemen a socialist? Most everyone, even those on the right agree that the government is needed for some sort of services. Such as the military and roads. The only thing Bernie does, is he thinks healthcare and college should be added to that list. Doesn't seem so bad when you put it in perspective does it?
