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7/25/2017 8:38:01 PM
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The Design Philosophy of Destiny 2, and who this game is really for....

[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b] These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b] Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials. Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here.... Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore. Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there..... Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first. Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"... not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b] Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup. Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this? If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel. This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback. TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE. One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it. For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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  • Spot on my man. D2 is desperate to expand player base and kids drive sales. This alone aligns to there decisions to dumb down the game and on top of that made it easier to build the game, balance and expand upon. End of the day if your ride or die Destiny and desperate for "new" content then you buying the game regardless. Me personally, money aside I don't want to waste my time anymore if this is direction and quality of content of D2 moving forward. I'll be watching and keeping my out but I will not be buying the game until weeks after the fact and we get a good idea of final product.

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  • [quote]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more [b]WATCHABLE[/b] experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatant..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down. [/quote] Just thinking out loud.... The statement from Deej could be the nub of the argument for the switch to 4v4 - the word "watchable". With 6v6, there were mini engagements all over the map that were not "watchable" in a streamer's/tuber's video. Detuning guns means we'll have to team-shoot more - again, the game becomes more "watchable". Making all PvP playlists a 4v4 tells me that whatever the equivalent of Trials appears in D2, it'll rotate through all game modes - again, to make it more "watchable", sorta like the weekly crucible playlist now in D1.

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  • Wow. Well written, and spot on. Bungie! You need to read this!

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  • totally true about them shitting themselves with piss poor damage control, I bet they are bricking it, pre order sales down so much negativity about it, since the beta. Bungie haven't covered themselves with glory with the way this was handled...covered in something else....but not glory.

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  • Whats interesting is they think 4 vs 4 is for casuals? Because it most certainly is not. For anyone who doesn't believe me go play Halo 5. Nobody but the hardcore players are still playing and has been the case after about 10 months after release. 4 vs 4 is highly competitive and only the highly competitive players will remain 6 months after launch. Count on it. I will not be buying the game because of the 4 vs 4. I also don't mind being honest 4 vs 4 is simply not my forte. Big teams is.

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  • Very well written and I agree to 100%

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  • I seem to be the only one that likes the 4v4. I do think they should have at least one game mode that is maybe on a shuffle game type/map with larger groups of people. Maybe not 6v6 because that's not a big enough change, but i did see another comment about 10v10 which would be cool. I like 4v4, but it's good to have a variation of options to keep things interesting. I think the TTK is just fine. Love that the sniper is a heavy, especially for PVP. Always hated when an entire team was using TLW and 1k. Just use a scout rifle and hand cannon and that works just fine for me. Part of me doesn't like the change in not having a sniper or fusion or anything - but i think it causes people to actually use their primary which is good. Will be interesting to see what happens when real perks and all that come out with the real game. I think that will change things up quite a bit - but that could be wishful thinking. The story seems to be done much better than what we got in D1. Have high hopes for that because it could be one of the most interesting games around if it is done right. I hate what COD has become, so i really hope destiny does not turn into that.

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    • I compleatly agree. I played destiny 1 for hours and hours on end and from playing the Beta for 1hr I realized how much work it needs...

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    • Great write-up. Although, I do have one major disagreement.... [quote]Its done for CASUALS[/quote] I consider myself to be one of those 'dirty casuals' and I sure as hell did not ask for the changes. I hate the simplification / stream-lining of the classes. I am not thrilled with gear coming with static perks. I am not a fan of the change to 4v4 If we look at the Destiny 2 info - there are supposed to be 5 modes when Destiny 2 launches and of the 3 we've seen so far, two seemed to be cratered to organized teams. Not casual friendly and definitely not solo friendly (another aspect that I have.. I'm a solo player) Sorry, but it just sets my teeth on edge whenever people think being a casual player is a bad thing, and especially as it relates to a game link Destiny. Sorry, but Destiny was casual friendly game - regardless of what people may think. Now you did redeem yourself to some degree with the Jar Jar Binks comment, but for me it's not the Ghost, it's the new AI Failsafe that I see as being that one annoying as fück character. (I muted the sound half way through my first run of the strike in the beta because of that damn AI.) I'm done ranting. I like the message that you're conveying. Well done

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      • I agree, I'm not impressed with the changes, it feels cheap, a budget version of D1. The beta really felt underwhelming, my friends and I played once through each destination then just stopped playing. They should have thought much bigger, instead of 4v4 they should have tried to go BIG 32v32 or even just 12v12. If you have a regular raid team, how good would it be to stay in the fireteam of 6 and do all the story and strike missions? I imagine the original vision for Destiny was much bigger than what they produced for D1, and it seems to be shrinking from the looks of the D2 beta. Bungie, go back to the original vision and then go BIGGER. I hope I'm very wrong, and when D2 comes out it's HUGE and blows me away, but right now, I'm not even excited about it.

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      • Yep sounds about right

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      • I am sorry, but 4 vs 4 killed it for me. I wanted to see improvements in the map size, team size and have some vehicles for gods sake. 4 v 4 is regression, not advancing anything that I hold dear. When I think of Bungie I think of Big Team Battle, not 8 in a cardboard box.

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        • Wait, so who are they making the game for ?

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          • You clearly love the game.

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          • Maybe by the time we pay for a few dlcs they will fix this turd

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            • The greatest shit I had ever read... I hold back my laughing tears because your complain doesn't made ANY constructive comment in your post how bungie could improve the game. Such posts are unworthy for my respect.

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            • I wonder if raids will be simplified so that only 2/3 people can easily do them?

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            • These are all highlighting only one thing. Destiny has an extremely big leadership problem. They have staff to do things but those staff is not doing their job . Hell look at Community Manager Deej , he is doing everything else then managing the community and get paid hefty amount of money every month. Luke Smith - John Wiesnevski they all failed in their jobs zillion times in past 3 years yet they are still holding their leadership positions. Bungie needs to make serious changes on key positions and make big changes. Otherwise they seriously are in big danger.

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            • [quote]The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?[/quote] Well at least he [i]can[/i] open doors....

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            • Yea, seems like its become worse. PvP is slower now and PvE agains suffers due to PvP. Best way to speak up is to cancel your pre-order and not buy in at launch.

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            • I dont normally read posts that consists of more that two sentences so you have done well to hold my interest to the very end! I certainly agree with you regarding them saying they gave us an outdated beta version. Thats just bullsh!t and us intelligent ones know it. What we saw and played is what we are going to get I have no doubt. The only difference being is the weapon and armour perks which were locked out for us. I am convinced that all of the decisions Bungie have made have been to make their life easier and less complicated so they can just sit back and let the cash roll in for little extra work when things need sorting.

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            • Edited by monkyken: 7/26/2017 10:11:15 AM
              Great post and I agree with you D2 feels very much like its catering to the younger generation, the ghost dialogue with jokes etc just feels wrong, every Grimoire card from D1 describes them in a way that makes them sound like what Peter Dinklage portrayed, now they just sound like hyperactive children. The whole make it easy make it simple streamline everything, 2 trees no true customization just makes D2 feel very boring, while I will probably buy the base game some time after it's release to see what they actually ended up selling I don't see myself investing myself in D2 personally, not that I have any disrespect to anyone who chooses to do so. Honestly when you look at D2 anyone from the start playing of legal age should be around 16 by now, the vast majority of the player base in my opinion is most likely 18+ at this point, I get trying to win new audience but bringing in this many kid friendly aspects is going to rail road their 10 year plan as kids don't want to play kid games when they become young adults. As you put it, trying to cater to everyone you cater to no one, trying to cater to the younger generation you alienate the current player base and the older generation. What they are effectively trying to do is gain those 12-16 year olds that potentially won't have played D1 what they seem to be missing is that by aiming for that little gap they are potentially losing a massive block of 18+ year-olds who hold a much large portion of the player base.

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            • Edited by Kone19ps: 7/25/2017 10:25:42 PM
              The perk descriptions don't even work the way they say. How the hell were people supposed to understand that unflinching actually just speeds up recentering speed without being told when the description says reduces flinch. You don't get to make the claim it was too confusing when part of your D1 philosophy was to be purposely vague!! By the way throwing around casuals is not the way to go. I'm a casual and I hate this.

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              • Since ROI alot of things has been downhill, mistakes after mistakes

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                • Edited by THUNDERCHILD: 7/26/2017 1:48:14 AM
                  I wish i could give you 5 stars, great thread. My thoughts on the subject: [b]Something is Wrong With Destiny 2 PvP[/b] https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/229299822?sort=0&page=0

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                  • The first day i learned about nerfs and buffs being a thing i knew/feared, this was the direction games were going. You openly endorse a corporation producing an inferior product, they're going to do the least possible because you demand no better and hold them accountable for nothing... "It's just a beta". People still say that about destiny. It's a 3 year beta that cost northwards of 200 dollars to stay up to date with... Remember the year 2 propaganda bungie fed these retards? "Time played verse cost of game made destiny an amazing value"... Horse crap! It had all the youtube idiots praiseing bungie. Lmfao. Including the 2 consoles and buying the game and all it's dlc twice, i could have bought another car, or taken a trip abroad, or something else that would have been more cultured and stayed a more prominent memory in my life than this crap! These kids ruined this game and it makes me laugh. Mom and dad buy the shit and if we don see a good value or fun use of time we don't splurge. Fuq bungie. Nerf buff. Never ask for better or more competitive content and keep asking for nerfs and buffs, i'm sure this won't last...

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