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7/25/2017 8:38:01 PM
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The Design Philosophy of Destiny 2, and who this game is really for....

[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b] These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b] Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials. Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here.... Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore. Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there..... Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first. Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"... not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b] Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup. Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this? If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel. This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback. TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE. One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it. For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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#feedback

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  • Almost 6,400 hours played here on D1...but again, Bungie doesn't care what the veteran players have to say. I didn't think about the "kid" aspect of all this dumbing down of D2 but now that I think about I don't play with kids because they can't understand simple mechanics. Stands to reason Bungie would start handing out participation trophies to little Johnny son-of-a-b**ch and take away everything that made D1 fun in the first place.

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    • Edited by Spaceman: 7/26/2017 1:43:16 AM
      I actually don't think they made D2 for casuals. They made D2 for the sweaty try-hard streamers who do nothing but Trials carries. Bungie is setting the stage for a team oriented ranked pvp sporting event where Destiny is this huge banner for streaming competition. Most of Twitch is Trials streaming 3v3... Bungie figured heck why not do 4v4 and they can stream us all week and we sure love free marketing! I'm a no buy on D2. They killed everything we loved and enjoyed. There's no space magic in 2 primaries, weak abilities and supers, slow recharges, and a lame 2 path skill tree. D2 blows.

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      • One thing that struck me as I played the beta was that I hadn't seen any mention of weak weapons, slow ability charge rates and slower overall character movement from the people that had been invited to play the game at the reveal. Anything I did see from them was positive. Seems kinda strange, even if they all liked the changes they were blatantly obvious and something that you'd expect to gain some coverage.

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        • Edited by TheCyo: 7/26/2017 8:28:43 AM
          2k+ h player here. Destiny 2 is simply a different game than Destiny 1. If I'm a Tennis player and the ATP suddenly decides, that the game is played with baseball bats instead of rackets, I do not have to adapt. I can move on. It's no longer the game I liked to play. And, btw, as you lose your stuff anyway, there's no sunken cost issue with abandoning D2. Well done, Bungie. #notmydestiny

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          • Outstanding post & dead on.

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          • I'd totally be happy to wait another 6 months for them to revamp the game.

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            • Bump again, because this needs to be read.

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            • I agree with this. Why else would you give fidget spinners with preorders at game stop if you were not targeting kids for this sequel ? Also, only a kid would find the new ghost lines funny.

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            • Since Taken King, every single piece of content, every one, including the sequel, has been tailor maid for people who naturally bad at the game. They've continually dumbed it down over and over and over. It's been happening since before TTK but I at least give them credit with King's Fall since it wasn't the backwards, eyes closed cake walk that Crota was. It's truly upsetting. I'm not a top tier player. I'm not the best of the best and I have done literally everything in the game with relative ease. I'm not saying I wanna play Dark Destiny 2 Souls, but that would beat the heck out of Hello Kitty: Destiny Adventure.

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            • If I've learned one thing about Bungie is that they really don't like their hard core players, both the Halo veterans and the Destiny legends. And that's because those people scare and intimidate their new casual players. They only acknowledge the streamers and youtubers that talk well about the game and almost never complain. That's why Wish You Luck was never the Community focus even though he pulls a big part of the Twitch audience into Destiny on the weekends and he tells it like it is. I don't agree with him every time be he always has a good point when he criticizes the game.

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            • So much this. Bump for eternity. F U to all those who defend what bungie has done.

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            • Amen! Well said and it really is sad that they are ignoring the core player base and catering it to someone completely different. Im totally on board with a 6 month delay if it means we can have a real sequel to what was a great game!

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            • Well said. But I must disagree with you on one point. D2 wasn't streamlined for the Casual Gamer. Casual Gamers can deal with complexity, sub-systems, and deep character progression and customization. It just takes them longer to get to where they want to be due to lowered available play time. After playing the Beta, D2 was changed in that way that it was for no other reason that to "balance" it for the sweaty, try-hard PvP Streamers MLG-wanna-be's. Bungie even admitted as much. So the wonderful PvE experience that was present in Destiny, has been eviscerated in the name of, and for the sake of, "perfect balance" in PvP. What Bungie failed to realize is: in a pseudo-MMO like Destiny, just like in full-on MMORPG's, PvE constitutes 90+% of the Player base and game content. Sacrificing the 90+% to satisfy and appease the <10% will massively hurt the game, lower Player interest in the game among the highest concentration of population for the game, and ultimately spawn player population drop-off's that would panic most investors. But, this is the direction that Bungie has taken with D2, and all we can do is watch their game burn with the discontent. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Clan/Detail/18551]Morte Ascendo.[/url]

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              • It's for pvp streaming twats. Nobody else.

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              • I don't get why a game has to be easy to understand in order to be good.... If anything I'd say the opposite would be true!

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              • Edited by Hamlet76: 7/26/2017 5:50:12 PM
                I'm really sick of this lowest common denominator approach to game development. Everything needs to be simplified. Everything needs to be pick up and play. Everything needs to be casual friendly. Whatever happened to realizing that you suck at something and practicing like hell to change it? They don't take bunker shots out of golf to make them more friendly to new players. They don't level mountains to ensure that new skiers don't fall down. The world has a giant helmet on right now. Sometimes it's okay to go through some hardship to get where you want to go. The good things in life require effort and just because that can sometimes seem a little like work doesn't mean that our passions need to be changed or simplified. I got worried when one of the first things out of Luke Smith's mouth in one of the ViDocs alluded to bringing new people into Destiny. He talked about how recruiting new players into Destiny was one of the pillars of their approach when making Destiny 2. New players, more Eververse and more money being thrown at the screen. It's high fives all around at the Bungie HQ think tank. "I'll meet you in the money pool after work...!!" That's great from a business perspective but ultimately shortsighted when the changes could potentially alienate an already loyal and robust customer base. Keep the people you've got and do your best to get new players but NEVER do that at the expense of your existing customers. Destiny doesn't need to be for everyone and changing it with those hopes in mind has fundamentally altered how the game is played. ...and in my opinion: --having fixed rolls on guns is not fun --having slow moving and somewhat clunky feeling guardians is not fun --having watered down and weak melee and grenades is not fun --limiting PvP to always be 4v4 is not fun --putting another primary weapon in the special weapon slot is not fun --having to pick either a rocket OR a sniper is not fun --shooting a bullet sponge strike boss with no real mechanics to suss out is not fun --having to potentially split up parties because our activities don't match up anymore is not fun --having virtually zero interaction from the community managers is not fun --having exotics that don't feel exotic is not fun --having the game you loved ripped out from under you and called new is not fun Destiny 1 is my favorite game of all time but over the course of its life cycle those same things that I love have been gradually taken away. For me personally, games like this are essentially about finding power for the character. This is what's most lacking for me in Destiny 2. I'm supposed to feel like a badass but I feel so ordinary. Unfortunately, Bungie have proven to be a little stubborn when it comes to the changes they make to their games and I don't have high hopes that they'll change Destiny back to the golden age of Destiny 1. Sadly, I'm cancelling my preorder today. I don't expect sympathy and I'm not hunting for forum attention. For me it's about how the game has changed. The moment I saw the preorder screen come up on the UI some months back I instantly bought the game and the first two expansions. I thought that there is no possible way that I wouldn't play the absolute crap out of Destiny 2. It seemed like the easiest money that I've ever spent but currently I'm overwhelmed with doubt. I'll most likely grab the standalone version on launch day but at this point I can't fully commit to Destiny going forward if changes aren't made. I still can't believe I'm thinking this..."at this point I can't fully commit to Destiny going forward..." I never thought in a million years that I'd be feeling this way mere weeks away from the biggest sequel my gaming hobby has ever known.

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                • This is very well-written and thought-out I agree 100% and I am glad you presented it like this rather than in all caps and angry. Props to a fellow level-headed person. Cheers

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                • 4,700 hour player here. The changes are for the minority of the player base. 50% more players have always played PvE. Every change has removed the FUN from the game. The 2 primary weapon loadout and the complete abortion that is 4v4 PvP are the worst parts. It boggles the mind as to why Bungie would turn this game in to a soggy pile of shit. Here's a list of probable quotes from the devs, during the design phase of Destiny 2. "Let's take away their awesome special weapon and replace it with a shitty airsoft gun that's only for taking down shields." "What the -blam!- is effective damage output?" "They should have to shoot enemies 500+ times to kill them." "Plus the PvP crybabies get triggered if they get killed by a shotgun or sniper." "Then we'll move the special weapons to the heavy slot, and make them all extremely weak." "We know they liked the freedom of being able to carry a sniper and a rocket launcher at the same time, but -blam!- that." "Choose one out of the 5 heavy choices, assholes!" "We don't want the PvP crybabies to bitch about it." "Even though they are the vast minority of the player base, ruined the first game, and would still complain if the game was a slap fight simulator." "Then we'll add grenade launchers, but make them completely worthless, and remove the awesome machine guns, because who the -blam!- knows why?" "What the -blam!- is a Thunderlord?" "We're also going to make the beta sniper rifle highlight enemies through the scope, but we're gonna make the aiming reticle in the scope the same -blam!-ing color as the enemy highlights, so it's impossible to see." "Genius!" "You know how we buffed supers a while back because they were weak?" "We're just gonna keep them weak this time, and shorten the durations, while also making the cooldowns longer than a PvP match, because -blam!- fun, right?" "Wait until they see the amazing changes to the Nova Bomb." "I present to you the Slova Bomb." "So slow and useless that the enemies will have died from old age or just moved out of the way before it kills them." "We'll make all grenades, especially sticky grenades, completely incapable of killing anything in PvE or PvP." "The crybaby PvP players were tired of having powerful abilities, so we made them more useless than throwing rocks at the enemy." "In closing, we will completely go the opposite direction in our design choices that made to first game great." "In order to cater to the bad PvP players and all of our sellout fanboy streamers and youtubers, we'll remove any sort of challenge from PvP." "While simultaneously killing any and all fun in PvE." Fast forward to Destiny 2 announcement: "We can't wait for you to play the Destiny 2 beta on July 18th to see all the awesome changes we've made to the game you love." "Make sure to pre-order Destiny 2 to get beta early access." "Deej, out." Fastforward to September 6th: Destiny 2 flops worse than No Man's Sky, and Bungie files bankruptcy.

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                  • I enjoyed everything from Destiny 2 beta so i'm going to keep playing Destiny.

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                  • Lots of text....lots, when the question is simple. If you like playing the game why do you care who they had in mind when creating it? Sometimes people can over think things. Wouldn't you agree?

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                    • Children...same as Destiny 1. Same as every video game ever game. Idk why you needed 10 paragraphs to explain this.

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                      • But the people who provided the feedback for d1 [b]didnt[/b] understand pvp... Perfect example: matador meta Should players simply shift to using a sidearm to counter aggressive shotgunners? "No i shouldnt have to change for the meta, the meta should change for me! Nerf Mapador!" Then they get the nerf... and complain about the next meta. Also, the above example that was a quote from an actual post here on the forum where a player claimed a "mapador" one shot him from across the map on first light... You are right though, making a game for everyone results in a game for no one, but the community seems to think this game should change for everyone, they seem to think that making demands for "quick fixes" to any aspect of the game is the solution then complain when they get what they want... Another example: Weve asked for a new version of Vog since HoW, and a new version of Crota since TTK, and what we got during the festival was just that, youd think the feedback would be positive... but it was mostpy people complaining that bungie is repackaging content... content that not even a moth prior the community was demanding...

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                      • Judging a game off a tiny appetizer of a beta is illogical. You're going to buy it, we all know it.

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                        • Lost me at "made for casuals". As if making a game for the largest market share is a bad thing.

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                          • Edited by twisted504boy: 7/27/2017 9:02:27 PM
                            I'm going to reserve judgement on destiny 2 until I see the whole game. A beta with one story mission,one strike,and two multiplayer maps and modes is not enough to make a complete decision on destiny 2. I liked a lot of what I saw and I think they still need to make some adjustments too. But I'm sure we will see some adjustments on things like super charge times and melee and grenade charge times and ammo drop rates before the final game releases. As far as the general gameplay and overall feel of everything it just felt like a cleaner and prettier and more polished version of the destiny we all already know and love.

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                            • Edited by Lordsa Jar-Jar: 8/1/2017 3:41:52 AM
                              Agreed. Fortunately your opinion is shared widely and is already corresponding with the low pre-order sales they've gotten so far when compared to D1. Hopefully they will finally understand what they need to do for D3, if there is a D3 after this. Reposted this on #Destiny, giving you full credit of course.

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