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Edited by Wes:
2/7/2019 1:39:07 AM
309
Not Forgotten and Luna's Howl are a Problem
So before anyone throws a fit, I have Not Forgotten. I got a group, I practiced, I succeeded and died succeeded and died over and over again, got good as a team and got it.
Not Forgotten and Luna's Howl are way too forgiving and dominate the game.
The gun does nothing except discourage players from playing PvP, even in quickplay. I get it. Pinnacle weapons need to be strong and PvP players needed something to grind for, but these guns have gone too far in the right direction. Pinnacle weapons should be fun and powerful in the right hands, and 180 RPM hand cannons have a very low skill requirement due to their high stability and recoil direction. This normally results in a slow TTK, but LH and NF negate this entirely with 2 headshots and a body. Ace of Spades even requires 3 headshots to kill. This results in people winning engagements because they have the better gun, rather than the better movement and aim.
As for a solution to these guns, I have no idea. Nerfing them, removing then from QP, or altering them will be met with a bunch of anger and lashing out. My best ideas (not perfect by far) are:
1. Make them exotics. Maybe then people will have a harder time choosing them and their choice will matter more.
2. Make Magnificent Howl activate after three precision hits, making it a 4 shot kill on the first target and a 3 shot kill on the next, as long as you continuously hit crits.
3. Nerf the perk so it takes 3 consecutive headshots to kill. That way the gun isn't as forgiving and requires a larger amount of skill to use appropriately.
4. Make them kinetic weapons. The best primary shouldn't be able to he pairs with the best shotgun in the game honestly. (Precision shotguns need a rework. Dust Rock Blues has very few downsides compared the aggressive frame shotguns.)
5. Decrease their stability and recoil direction significantly. The guns can honestly be spammed and be affective due to the flinch the cause and their stability and recoil direction and still be very, very effective. This is especially true in team engagements, but is also true for 1v1 engagements.
6. Combinations of those above.
I hope the guns aren't nerfed into the ground, but some adjustments are necessary. I don't even use mine.
Edit: The other solution to this issue is one I completely forgot to mention. Buff other hand cannons. 140s should kill in 2 crit 1 body. Balance the others from there. 180s should probably stay the same or have more recoil.
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making it exotic is the worst possible solution. I haven't bothered to play much comp to get my lunas but If they made it exotic I would since I like having every exotic. For me its a matter of laziness but for a lot of people locking an exotic behind competitive PVP is a huge issue. Its the same reason trials never had any exotics linked to them except 2 cosmetic items, an emblem and a ghost.
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They are not going to nerf it. It requires a ton of grinding. They will nerf Void warp into the ground because it makes people who spend silver feel sad.
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the only way Handcannons can be good is when they have pulse rifle range and no recoil
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Jesus I mean are people really letting this get to them this much
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1 ReplyOnce I saw LH, I knew that it was going to nearly render other hand cannons obsolete on console. They took the easiest to use archetype and gave it the fastest time to kill. That’s why I think the best solution is to change LH and NF to be in the 150 archetype and rework hand cannon damage to where 110s can 1 crit 2 body, 140s can 2 crit 1 body, 150s can 3 crit, and 180s stay the same. If LH and NF were changed to this system, they’d still be viable in regards to hand cannons as a whole but they wouldn’t be dominant like how they are now. For the record I have LH.
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I think they should be limited to comp, or whatever iteration of trials comes back. Makes sense to me that you want to succeed in the PVP endgame, you grind and get those guns to come out on top, but they don’t belong in Quickplay IMO. Also, if they are held to comp, make OTHER options as good as those, including, scouts, fusions, SMGs, etc. it would add more exclusivity and prestige to those weapons anyway, win win.
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3 RepliesI'm on the "make it exotic" train, but then again all people use is Lunas howl and dust rock blues... So that doesn't really solve anything
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Edited by I Jack I: 2/7/2019 12:45:48 AMI Have Luna’s howl,in my opinion I agree with two ideas from you. 1) 3 shot kill only if are 3 consecutive headshot 2) Change them from legendaries to exotics But I still think Luna’s Howl It is not OP,I use it and at close range is really good, medium range is pretty average...and if somebody shoot you with a weapon with high caliber rounds as the Ace of spade you don’t get crit by crit anymore so...Luna’s Howl is fine...Not forgotten is a better weapon but I have seen just a few of them so at the end of the day they are not a problem In my opinion...
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Just limit them from QP and give us another playlist that exists between QP and Comp where it is meant for sweatier players. Give us another pinnacle weapon in that playlist to chase. Enable level advantages and turn on SBMM (in a slightly less strict mode than the last time). Ensure fair matches, 50/50 skill balance and let the sweat go down in that playlist. Any pinnacle weapons earned in QP playlist can be used in higher tiers but sweaty / comp pinnacle weapons can't be used in the QP playlist. Give casuals and folks wanting to mess around in QP with silly loadouts what they want with an actual stress free place to relax. Get the sweats that want to run pinnacle / full sweat loadouts a place to play where they can't just pub stomp since they will be playing folks with the same skill / weapons and leave Comp the way it is with the best weapons still a tough to get grind, as it is now. But please don't start taking away the things that have really inspired a lot of folks to play PVP and to get better at the game. Limit them from playlists and give us more options instead of eliminating excellent loot from the game.
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6 RepliesWait wait, you want to make luna's and not forgotten on the same level as Ace and TLW, as someone who solo queued my way to lunas, the amount of work alone is worth lunas being miles better. They shouldent even be close. Ace of Spades is a quest weapon that takes no time to get and is easily one of the best weapons in the game. TLW again.. took zero time to get, the pvp portion took all of 6 games total and the pve portion was a joke. So lets review.. Exotic hand cannons that are nearly as good, if not better in some situations than lunas howl is : super easy weapons to get, any body can get them. Lunas howl/ Not forgotten: pinnacle pvp weapons that take time and grinding to get, shouldent be as good. Why not just start everyone with the best guns???
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How much did you pay for your NF?
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5 RepliesI'd just make them exclusive to comp and trials (if it comes back), in quickplay these just lead to teams getting stomped. You want an OP weapon, fine, but use it in its proper context, which is high level pvp, not iron banner and quickplay. Then you have an even chance of coming up against it instead of players just doing a milestone or questline
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1 ReplyIt makes me so happy inside when you see someone actually switch to their NF/LH in Quickplay. "Oh, diddums... did the mean man kill you with a Halfdan/Hardlight setup? What a clown. Seriously, who runs double AR? Such a bad. You go right ahead and switch to your big boy gun, show him he has no business playing AR's in Quickplay. Salt salt salt..." Naturally, I only ever see that they switched at the death recap (after 0.7 seconds), but that's still a win for me in my books. You gotta take the little victories when you don't own the sweatiest weapons yet. There's no real point getting worked up about it. The playing field isn't level, so you just play your best and enjoy yourself.
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bungie really had no idea what they were doing when it came to these two hand cannons i doubt they have no idea about the shit storm that is on the way when it comes to sorting them out either there is a reason i stick to pve i keep myself well clear of these situations bungie create
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Even giving the guns to the masses via the Broadsword treatment doesn't remedy the problem. The perk Magnificent Howl is game breaking. There is no disputing this. Bungie needs to go back to the drawing board and rework the perk. Requiring 2 consecutive headshots with a 180 is waaaaaaaaaaay too easy of a condition to meet for a damage buff that significant. I have less of a problem with Luna. It has a downside being its poor range stat but . . . . . WHY THE -blam!- WOULD YOU CREATE A 2ND VERSION OF THIS GUN AND ELIMINATE THAT 1 WEAKNESS!?!
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These are all good suggestions. But also how bout decreasing ammo for each mag. Like instead of 10 shots its 7-8 shots. That way people are more cautious with their aim and reloads(for LH)
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[quote]This results in people winning engagements because they have the better gun, rather than the better movement and aim.[/quote] Just as you said with the direct quote. If I grind a Pinnacle Weapon, I sure as hell HOPE I have the better gun than some person using a Duke Mk.44 or whatevs.
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5 RepliesMeh your stats are pretty subpar... bet you paid for that NF.
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Edited by MrMac: 2/6/2019 11:27:57 PMLH or NF can be countered by any weapon or more importantly, by adapting and adjusting one's play style. The people who got their pinnacle weapons worked hard to get them and have mastered a certain play style that caters to those weapons. One thing they have in common is they don't just ape around or rush needlessly. Every movement is calculated. This is the training that one gets when one subjects one's self in the competitive playlist. Some players just never learn. Now that TLW is in the mix, the aping and the rushing just got worse. People need to understand that the LH/NF users are around, just waiting for their prey. If you're an ape rusher, then you should not complain when you get killed, not just by LH/NF but by any other weapon. Someone out there is just lurking about with their chosen weapon, and waiting for some idiot to appear on their radar. Having an aggressive play style has its downside too! Another way Bungie can solve this is to implement ranked play lists in QuickPlay. You can have Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3. Classify pinnacle weapons into Tier 2 and 3 and not allow it in Tier 1. If you don't want to face off against LH/NF, then go ahead and spend all your time in Tier 1. However, rewards will also be tiered off in the same manner. You'll have better rewards playing T2 and T3.
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I have been passing around the idea of changing magnificent howl to recreate luck in the chamber. Basically after 2 rapid headshots a random shot in the leftover magazine would do increased damage.
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the problem is the maps are small and encourage close range pvp, most rifles are outmatched by hand cannons in most situations. The meta build is a handcannon and a shotgun and that is because of map design.
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Be careful what you wish for. If lunas was a kinectic I'd be mapping boys with merciless like i did running broadsword and merciless. I do agree with making them require headshots through and through. Rewards precision shouldnt be able to cop out at the end.
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5 RepliesThe Broadsword treatment. This is the best option with the least pissed off people. It involves no nerfs, encourages lapsed players to come back, cuts down on the recoveries and carries, will allow skill to be skill with these weapons. future buffs to other weapon types can be used to control these guns' effectiveness without it feeling like one part of the pvp community is being targeted.
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I believe the only fair way to handle this situation is to lock guns like Luna's and Not Forgotten behind the playlist they are earned in. In other words, they can only be used in the competitive playlist and not quick play
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I kinda agree/disagree. I think the goal with these weapons and things like Mask; is to raise the overall power offerings to feel more powerful. The issue being that they currently outshine everything else in the game by such a fair amount. (Un?)fortunately items like AceofSpades and Last Word are easy enough to get to close the gap in PvP. I have Luna and I almost have Not Forgotten, and I think they reward skilled play in a way that no other weapon does.
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Nerf the Dust Rock and Wardcliff instead because even if they have Not Forgotten that’s all they seem to use in Quickplay. Making them exotic is something I wouldn’t mind on paper, but I love pairing the Chaperone with my Luna so idk.
