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12/15/2016 9:31:58 PM
23
The problem with balance patches
There is a problem with weapons balancing. It's gotten to the point in this game where it's not even balancing weapons. It's just neutering weapon archetypes and bringing up others. I'm fully aware that in any game there will be a 'meta' of sorts but in destiny, the Crucible is so meta dependent that unless you are using a select few archetypes (not to mention the problems with roll advantages) you are put at a significant disadvantage. One of the greatest things about Destiny in my opinion is the diverse roster of weapons. In PVE this isn't a huge issue but in PVP that diverse cast of weapons is limited to a very small number. The point of weapon balancing patches should be to give each archetype it's own place in the Crucible. Not to the point of where no weapon is unique, just to the point where all weapons are useable
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1 ReplyThat's how every balance patch has been since this game came out. Very few games ever reach real variety. This ones no different. I'd just prefer that they didn't nerf anything at all and just buff underperforming weapons and subclasses.
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If high impact shotties had less range and low/mid had higher range, this whole thing would be fixed and still leave the chaperone with its special place
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But buffing autos like the way I want to won't make them kill any faster, they will just have more consistency, and here's my reasoning for it: So I was playing around with a friend in custom games to test the consistency of auto rifles at a distance, and I gotta say it kind of sucks, now let me explain. Autos at a medium range lose about 1-2 damage depending on the range stat, but the conclusion I came to was is that if you even do a consistent 24/19/14 damage a headshot, it takes an additional bullet to kill, not to mention since max armor is a thing it makes the high rof autos crap because even if you hit for 20 on headshots it STILL requires 1 additional bullet. Now your probably thinking, "oh 1 bullet isn't anything," but when it comes to TTK it just makes autos the SLOWEST killing gun at medium range, which is stupid, but also light level advantages play a great part in this as well, effectively making autos the worst for trials and the worst overall gun type. The number of bullets it takes without max armor for each archetype of auto at full damage: [spoiler]Max rof 14 bullets (15 a headshot point blank) High rof 10 bullets (20 a headshot with the exception of hardlight and Monte Carlo which CAN do 21 at the cost of stability) Low rof 8 bullets (26 to the head) Focused fire low rof 6 bullets (34 to the head)[/spoiler] Bullets at -1 damage because fall off [spoiler]Max rof 15 bullets (14 a headshot) High rof 11 bullets (19 a headshot) But low rof autos have the same amount of bullets Focused fire low rof 7 bullets (33 a headshot)[/spoiler] And now for the dumb part, full damage at max armor (210 health) [spoiler]max rof 14 bullets EXACTLY (15 a headshot equaling 210 damage) High rof 11 bullets (20 a headshot equaling 220 damage) Low rof 9 bullets (26 a headshot equaling 234 damage and 208 with 8 bullets) Focused fire low rof autos 7 bullets (34 a headshot equaling 238 damage and 6 doing 204)[/spoiler] And you guys can clearly see that autos suffer a lot from fall damage (read the spoilers in case you didn't) And my solution for each auto is: [spoiler]max rof does 16 at full damage and 15 at a slight distance (oh and just so you know, these autos only do 15 normally at point blank and 14 at a slight distance) High rof does 22 point blank and 21 at a distance Low rof does 27 a headshot and 26 at a distance Focused fire does 36 at medium and 34 more long distance[/spoiler] And the best part is, even with the buffs I mentioned the guns wouldn't kill any faster, they would just be more consistent
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1 ReplyWell, scout rifles need a buff in some way. The easiest way to do this is to have stagger decrease over distance of bullet traveled so that the scout can keep it's cross-hairs on target. Easier. This is actually partly true to real world physics where in a bullet loses velocity over time due to resistance, and really hand cannons, auto rifles, and pulse rifles have all been given their moment to shine. It's time that scouts were made more competitive. It also means scout rifles can stagger at greater distances because of the explosive rounds perk because that flinch is based on an explosion on impact. To those who will say there's nothing wrong with scout rifles and that they've never been buffed meaningfully because they're so well balanced. I've done my research, on average, scout rifles have the lowest number of kills of all primary weapons, lower kills then shotguns and snipers, comes in only marginally above fusion rifles which also need a minor buff, and less kills than supers, melees, or grenades. The only non heavy weapon that has markedly lower kills than the scout rifle is the side arm which badly needs a buff.
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2 Repliesnext meta should be snipers, oh wait.. nvm. I forgot all these players are so bad they need a weapon requires no skills, no accuracy, just a simple shotty if that doesn't kill run away or melee like usual. LOL
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9 RepliesEdited by T1m_is_Here: 12/16/2016 5:25:15 PMMost of the people on the shotgun band wagon are only protecting their crutch. If shotguns are meta its because they are the most efficient way of killing someone. Any gun that falls into the category of being meta is always 1-2 steps above all other weapons which is why it becomes meta. Look at the current meta now. Clever dragon with HCR for long range gunfights and shotguns for the mid range gunfights. Matador is not balanced and buffing primaries (which is everyone's answer to fix the shotgun meta) will not make crusible better. We literally had this same meta before. Thorn TLW and shotgun meta was like a year ago? Maybe a little longer than that? How is buffing primaries going to fix anything? People were still running around with shotguns everywhere when you could 2 tap people at range with TLW. In fact using shotguns was like the only way to combat TLW and Thorn without using TLW and thorn. So even if we don't buff those two guns but all the others. What happens? Clever dragon becomes a 2 burst kill at range? No thank you. Most legendary handcannon are a 3 tap and you are dead 1 head 2 body or 2 head 1 body depending on the range. With luck in the chamber some hand cannons can two tap people. Why would we want a consistent 2 tap or 2 burst? All of the other guns (which the exception of snipers and auto rifles) are balanced right now except for high impact shotguns and the Clever dragon. Why would they buff all other weapons up and decrease the TTK which is already really low to match those two weapons that are just obvious elephants in the room. Clever dragon needs a range nerf and HRC removed. Shotguns need a range nerf. End of story people.
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Edited by Chemical Freak: 12/17/2016 1:50:05 AMhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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4 RepliesStop balancing everything period... Every time a patch occurs PvE loses out.. Why? Because they can't separate the 2 modes, I play less crucible than PvE and people like me suffer because of whiney kids in PvP so until they can fix THAT issue my suggestion is don't touch anything again!. Have 3 PvE quests that give a beginning gun choice for PvP only, once you have them you go into the crucible and every gun from rewards then on should only have 3 scope choices, and no perks at all. Each gun needs to perform as its subset is balanced to do, no advantage no disadvantage and also it stops PvE being affected by PvP whining.
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Edited by Brindle_Badger: 12/16/2016 1:40:52 AMThe problem with balance patches is the lack of them
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I got a better idea. How about Bungie stops letting everything that is ever created into crucible. This way they can at leat attempt to make something out of the mess they created.
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12 RepliesThe rotating meta is one of the things I HATE MOST about Destiny. TBH, the only way this tish is EVER going to be balanced is if they embrace generic combat. PVPers want SKILL based outcomes, not WEAPONS-Based outcomes. And that will never be the case without generic combat (generic weapons, generic characters, generic abilities, etc.) Generic isn't Destiny. Destiny is fun/exciting because it is NOT generic. So Bungie should embrace that, LOVE it, build on it, and tell the nerf-herders to stfu. If they want an ultra-balanced PVP experience with generic combat, they can go play halo.
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Edited by blade329: 12/16/2016 5:30:56 PMWell, it's kind of hard to have weapons/gear with perks, special weapons, heavy weapons and expect everything to come out in a perfect balance. That's just not going to happen. Having perks,etc. is one of Destiny's greatest strengths, but it's a double edged sword. This drive to make primaries more powerful is going to have some consequences. It's going to render special weapons practically obsolete. Then the complaints will be about the uselessness of special weapons. Balance is in the eye of the beholder. The Trials of Osiris zombies have their own ideas of what balance means and it doesn't equate to the regular Crucible or PvE player.
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Yes, that is indeed what they said they intend for it to be, they call it a "rolling meta". And they've never cared how badly their PvP flailings would hurt PvE play.
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Edited by Nightflame27: 12/16/2016 12:47:07 PMThe game should be balanced by its diversity, if i wanted to use Mida for fun but then still do just as well on an Auto Rifle I should be able to. What Bungie should do is make an equal average time to kill for each archetype of weapon so it can be generally balanced but some weapons like exotics will still likely thrive well enough to warrant their use. Pulse rifles (excluding Clever Dragon) in the low impact/rof archetype usually have the same TTK as med impact/rof guns like Red Death.
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Edited by BraddyBo: 12/16/2016 11:10:01 AMThere will ALWAYS be a strict meta due to overall ttk. I just hope the meta consists of weapons i enjoy using (or weapon), my beloved shotgun.
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The problem is and always will be is that you can't please everyone.
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In the beginning before most of the year one players left. The question was raised why the meta every few months? Bungie did respond and provided an answer. The meta rotation is to keep the game feeling fresh as content simply can't. Content can run dry but meta changes can't. There will never be a near perfect balance in Destiny.
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So the problem with balance patches is that Bungie sucks at balancing, but their intents are good. Got it.
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1 ReplyWEAPON BALANCING IS A SCAM "PvP cycle of dysfunction": weapon balancing-->1 or 2 predominant weapons flush out-->everyone gravitates to them because it's survive or die-->bungie shows statistics of "overuse"-->we feel ashamed-->paves the way for new incoming weapon balance All along the way, Bungie feeds into the false narrative that they are listening to our feedback, then actually make changes based on our concerns. The whole time, of course, they have their own agenda. The common narrative has been that Bungie can't balance weapons. However, by keeping the meta narrow, then "making balance changes" keeps crucible fresh and gets the most longevity out its content and assets. It's part of their cycle of changes. They let us believe we have a voice. We do to a degree but not as much as they lead us to believe.
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I remember when everyone would ask - should I get a mida. No one ever thought it would be op and over used! Since day one they haven't really "balanced" anything. Just switched a handful of guns around. Would have been fun to see what options we would have if everything had of remained strong and viable. I'm not talking op vex release strong - but strong. Buff thorn slightly and bump up some other options a little bit instead of shifting the hardcore few
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Edited by Fujimoose: 12/16/2016 1:40:34 AMI think low rof weapons need a damage increase, at least on critical hits. A guy that fires his weapon slower will have a better chance at headshots which will be rewarding when they land. Bullet hoses aren't usually meant for crits because of the recoil. Bloom either needs a reduction on hand cannons, removed, or tweaked to where any shots that land within range register. We shouldn't have to get rangefinder or other range perks just for a gun to fire more accurately in range. They're supposed to just increase the effective range. If I take a hand cannon into sniper or scout ranges I should be punished and the same goes for bringing scouts and snipers in hand cannon ranges. We also need more maps that cater to different weapons. When most of them are for pulses and cqc it puts a strain on variety.
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balance is a difficult task especially when u have many different weapon types with different stats. on top of that gear and perks that alter weapons stats.
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I agree
