[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b]
These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b]
Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials.
Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here....
Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore.
Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there.....
Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first.
Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"...
not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b]
Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup.
Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this?
If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel.
This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback.
TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE.
One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it.
For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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#feedback
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The first day i learned about nerfs and buffs being a thing i knew/feared, this was the direction games were going. You openly endorse a corporation producing an inferior product, they're going to do the least possible because you demand no better and hold them accountable for nothing... "It's just a beta". People still say that about destiny. It's a 3 year beta that cost northwards of 200 dollars to stay up to date with... Remember the year 2 propaganda bungie fed these retards? "Time played verse cost of game made destiny an amazing value"... Horse crap! It had all the youtube idiots praiseing bungie. Lmfao. Including the 2 consoles and buying the game and all it's dlc twice, i could have bought another car, or taken a trip abroad, or something else that would have been more cultured and stayed a more prominent memory in my life than this crap! These kids ruined this game and it makes me laugh. Mom and dad buy the shit and if we don see a good value or fun use of time we don't splurge. Fuq bungie. Nerf buff. Never ask for better or more competitive content and keep asking for nerfs and buffs, i'm sure this won't last...
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4 RepliesI played the beta yesterday and was very confused about what in the world the scoreboard was saying. So there's no more kills and deaths in crucible??
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Thank you for this post. It makes a lot of since after playing the beta and then reading all of their statements.
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Wow, this is a GREAT post. Well said. Very enlightening. Thank you.
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1 ReplyIn reality i find it more logical that they changed crucible to 4v4 cause they have gone with the P2P system which i highly doubt can handle another 4 players without shitting the bed. Its usually only good for 1v1 - 2v2. They cheaped out on servers, obviously pinching every penny they can, cant really explain reducing the scale of your PVP on all fronts without the vast number of your player base just calling you tight asses, So you say you did it to make it more "competitive" even though there are specific "competitive" game modes and your game is really not designed to be played competitvely unless you seriously nerf half of what is in the game (oh look what they did.)... They will spin their BS they won't bring in any sort of 6v6 game mode its business as usual - minimise expence maximise profit.
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Edited by evomichel: 7/26/2017 11:09:43 AMMy main problems with Destiny 2: My first wish, from my destiny 2 wishlist was something like 20x20 or 12x12. We got 4x4. Second problem is, everytime i boot destiny 1, i feel less powerfull. My level 32 dark below character, with Fatebringer/Visions, Gjjalarhorn and Black hammer felt way more powerfull then i ever felt after the TTK DLC. Hell, even my forever 29 character felt the same way. My weapons dont carry as much ammo they used too, my handcannon shots turn into marshmallow after 10 meters, my autorifles take twice the time (and bullets) they used to take to kill a "yellow" mob. My super time is shorter, and during it, it shoot less nades or give less attacks. My "super rare" raid weapon have half the bullets in the magazine, etc. And now, they give me two primaries? WTF! How the hell i'm suposed to kill a raid boss with primaries? Yeah, it will have less health, probably, but still. I'm feeling underpowered. EDIT: And, on top of that, the dialogue is really awkward and/or cringy, made for 8 yr old kids.
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I feel the same really. I put countless hours into PvE in D1 and now I've played the beta, the guns feel so weak. I really hate how they are shaping this game into a PvP based game it seems. Even then I still don't think PvP players will enjoy this because players are just given 2 primary, seems a bit boring, but I don't really know since I didn't play as much PvP. Thank you for bringing this issue to attention, but I fear they won't heed this. I mean, sure its fine appealing to a new demographic but when your making a sequel you have to keep previous players happy as well.
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2 RepliesI thought I knew were you were going. I bought the ticket, got in the bus, and read the entire article until your analysis was this was for KIDS and CASUALS. That is when you veered hard left and took us off a cliff.... All of those quotes from the Bungie staff that you list with catch words like, "more competitive", "watchable", "harder to master", etc. doesn't say kids and casuals to me, it says streamers and competitive. That is what this games core design is built to accommodate.
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1 ReplyEdited by Gamaguado#1234 on discord: 7/26/2017 2:46:11 AMThis is very well said. I'm very worried that 4v4 will kill the game for me. I loved Destiny one and planned on investing heavily into Destiny 2 over the next year. I was even going to buy a computer and extra copy for my wife so we could play with my community of pc friends. I understand that 4v4 is good for competitive and I loved trials of osiris. The problem is that they're not going to give us the option to do what we want to do. 4v4 will get old quick if that's all there is. If pvp gets old, the game gets old because you know you've already beaten the pve side of things if you've even tried.
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Agreed!! All of their reveals on D2 so far have been laughable at best
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3 RepliesSeems like it's for little children that like repetitive simple stuff..
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8 RepliesDamn, That's some top shelf observations.
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BUMP. PEOPLE PLEASE BUMP. SO TRUE. MAKE THE GAME RATED M. Stop caring for the kids. They have call of booty god dammit!!!
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4 RepliesEdited by Nineball2112: 7/26/2017 12:48:53 AMI don't disagree with your thesis at all, however, there is no way in hell Bungie is going to delay this game. Bonuses, incentives,MONEY is riding on this game releasing at the already announced date of September 6th. The decisions have been made. There wasn't a poll to determine what they changed, there wasn't any public forum to discuss the changes (since we didn't know what they were planning), and there wasn't any serious consideration of anything other than what they SAY in terms of how you are supposed to play the game you paid for. There will be nothing but 4v4, and Bungie says you'll like it or lump it. There will be a new approach to play style they are forcing on you (team shotting), and Bungie says you'll like or lump it. There will be SEVERE time to kill increases across the board, and Bungie says you'll like it or lump it. There will be a dumbing down of choices, and Bungie will give you those pre-fabbed choices, and Bungie says you'll like it or lump it. Bungie hopes this whole experience of mucking up so much and upsetting so many people has been [b]learnable and understandable[/b] for you. TLDR: Bungie say like it or lump it.
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Check out the new IGN crucible reveal, its boring AF. How can they think that is more fun than D1, i'm talking about before the ability spam etc, its so boring to watch.
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Edited by Eternity: 7/26/2017 10:10:09 AMYour entire post and analysis falls apart completely as soon as you say "most of us". No, "most of us" didn't figure it out, "most of us" didn't enjoy the original game, "most of us" didn't think that the Destiny 1 crucible was an excellent modern competitive FPS experience - "most of us" in fact (well over 90% of the people who purchased Destiny) were so abysmally disappointed in the game that they stopped playing within a few weeks of vanilla launch, never ever to return. What you fundamentally don't seem to understand here is that the players who quit the game within a few weeks, and even those who never purchased the game, represent a far larger and more lucrative market than the tiny current playerbase. The amount of money invested in this game requires a [b]significantly[/b] larger return (i.e. number of sales) than the current playerbase can provide - this franchise will literally have the plug pulled on it [b]unless Bungie can figure out a way to vastly improve the appeal of the game to the wider market[/b]. You might have liked it, but the formula that defined Destiny 1 was overall an abysmal failure. The changes that have been made here are largely [b]not for your benefit[/b] - they are for people who hated it and wanted something more in line with other products on the market.
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They see more money from KIDs than adults due to kids are able to be fooled and please about anything. Sure I do have big play time in D1; however, its due to the people on my Xbox friends list a lot of them play D1. Reason I got into destiny was its something different from what I used to play COD. I got sick of how call of duty a 1 year life game and poof buy the game with season pass and on top of that microtransaction. It ruined the reward system for me. I like games that reward you for the time spent playing unlike say rng bull (supply drops). A lot of games used to reward players for the extra money they put into it ;however, now that's not the case plus its not good when you have streamers doing supply drop openings and jumping up and down like some school girl so happy of what rng gave them. Destiny 2, I will give them another shot who knows how the game will be or fully be on release date or say next year.
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3 Replies"When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE." Not the first time i've seen this happen. They wanted the casual audience and they got it. So i guess good job bungo.
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1 ReplyI hate it. Their idea of getting an audience back is dumming down to the point where yea, it's easy, but hardly cosidered complex enough to invest time into It least to a lack of gameplay variety (all we are seeing is primary peekaboo in crucible AND pve) and worse of all, gets rod of depth, especially the set rolls. The real route to take was evolving the game to include more factors (they almost had it right with the healing rift and titan barrier) but not make them so insignificant. You get me? They simplified ot to where they got a perfect balance but where fun and investment is void
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5 RepliesEnd result - it's a sluggish, slow, very average arcade-ish type game now. Destiny's best days are long gone. I'm now going to have to find another shooter. In D1 there was literally nothing left to implement to help the new and less skilled . D2 picked up where all of that necking down left off. What now exists is a child's game for the masses. Just not my cup of joe. For anyone disappointed , be honest with yourself, you didn't truly expect this marketing war to end any other way did you? The way D2 presents and plays was an eventuality. Where from here? COD WWII looks somewhat promising, release November 3rd. We'll see.
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Great post. I fear you are absolutely right. [quote][bTLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE.[/quote] Right on the money with that remark too. Destiny 2 is going to be a train wreck. Thank god they aren't going to mess up Destiny1 any further than they already did. I think I will be playing D1 instead until Anthem drops.
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haha I like the jar jar binks comparison, it seems rather appropriate
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TLDR. This game is ruined
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A good post thanks for putting the effort in for everyone from D1. Had been groping for a good one liner for the ghost JAR JAR BINKS perfect!
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67 RepliesIf you didn't enjoy the beta that's fine. You don't have to talk about it on the forums. The main thing you talked about was the 4v4 crucible, which myself and many other players think was a good change. Stop talking about your opinions as if they are facts.
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38 RepliesEdited by Smithy: 7/26/2017 3:30:41 AMYou are literally looking for reasons to be upset. EDIT: A response. [quote] Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand"[/quote] Because it's true. Even in Destiny 1 3s were easier to understand than 6s. You knew what weapons your opponents had, their subclass selection, their rough tactics and their rough positioning. Seemingly random panic supers or spawn sniping or grenade spam becomes nearly nonexistent. In comparison, 6s are chaos. There's nothing wrong with chaos when you just want to sit back and shoot dudes, but there's a reason most (if not all) competitive games go with smaller team sizes. [quote]LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again.[/quote] LOL? Grenade spam as a mastery technique? Yokes aside, team shotting is a skill. So is positioning, movement, ability rationing. Someone on the latest Bungie podcast -- the designer of the Black Spindle sidemission, actually -- said he drew his inspiration on that sense of mastery from watching CoD4/Mile High Club speedruns. What's so hard about just beating a mission? A lot. [quote]After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false[/quote] What a reactive opinion. [quote]So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate[/quote] You're right. Why bother helping your teammates in a Strike. Why bother actually playing the game in Crucible. Your teammates can just carry you to victory, right? Hell, why bother working IRL when you can coast on your coworkers' laurels. [quote]. Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"?[/quote] Or -- crazy thought -- he means that even if you lose, it's not a "what the -blam!- just happened" curb stomp. It's a "holy shit those guys were good" curb stomp. Or a "that was a close match I shouldn't do <x> next time" good game. Going back to point number one, where there's less chaos so you can play smart. [quote]A simple game has been made more simplified?[/quote] Simplicity is usually better. [quote]why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary[/quote] """"Replaced"""" Let's break down the roles of enemies since vanilla: The Fallen: They scrounged our stuff and prevented Rasputin from getting out. The Hive: They're stealing the Traveler's light through some magic. The Vex: The worshiped an imitation of the Darkness for <reasons> but we kill them because it's damaging the Traveler. The Cabal: They're in our way. Atheon: ??? Something about Kabr's fireteam? TDB: Crota wants us dead because Eris killed him because he wants us dead. HoW: Skolas does rebellion things. We find out about the Whirlwind (darkness?) and their relation with the Traveler. TTK: Oryx wants us dead because we killed his son. Also something about the Deep (darkness?) if you dig into the backstory. RoI: The Fallen find an ancient human weapon. Now in D2: The Cabal *literally* take away our light because <reasons>. Ghaul is the closest thing to an embodiment of the Darkness we've had, ever. Not that it matters because the Darkness directly hasn't played a motive in any of the D1 subplots. "The Darkness" is as concrete in the Destiny universe as "The Dark Side of the Force" is in Star Wars. [quote]why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened[/quote] As an aside I disagree. I played Titan last night after maining Dawnblade in the beta, not being able to shoot midair/having a usable class ability was weird. [quote]the random god roll type of loot[/quote] Which is more casual: A) Every time you finish a mission you have a % chance for getting the best gun in the game. B) If you for sure complete this hard mission you for sure get the best gun in the game. [quote]THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS[/quote] Bro, they've been bugfixing and tuning for six months. Six months is not enough to redesign a game if you want it to be good. If rumors are to be believed, that's how we got Destiny 1. [quote] If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning?[/quote] Because it's better to release something with few known technical issues for beta testing, especially when it has to go through internal and external verification. You can't (well, shouldn't) just make a few changes and throw it out to the general public.