All 3 classes need nerfs. Bungie wants chaos, so nothing is balanced. That's just the garbage game that we're in now.

Get good bro. User error. Playing some strikes at your level my guy 🫃🏿

I know. I hate when they say dumb sht like “ lol it’s the capes” Stfu.

Quitters suck.

Buff everything. Nerfs are no fun

Both hunters and titans need a nerf.

The truth is, each class has its crutch subclass. It's whether you choose to use it, and that's on you. I am a hunter main, but I main Arcstrider. I have never deviated. Arcstrider has been bastardized and nerfed so much over the years, it's sad really. It is the least used hunter subclass yet receives the most nerfs. With that being said, the speed you refer to us having, I don't see it. I have played around with the new armor and maxed my mobility stats and mods and my super is still extremely easy to outrun and float away from. The tracking on it is horrible, and tracks my own teammates better than the enemy. It's really become a joke for me. I admit, the wombos and invis are out of hand, but the same can be said for both stasis, void and strand warlocks and the endless freeze, axions and threadlings. With the titans it's shield camping, shiver strikes, one shot consecrations, endless overshields and tangles. As I said each class has it's own annoying ability spams. I will admit tempest strike on the hunter can be annoying if you run next to your teammates and suffer the jolt, but other than that, tempest strike is the weakest of the three classes. Lightening surge tracking is insane and has a really crazy motion incorporated allowing for an easy followup melee or body shot and can be hard to track. Where as the hunter tempest strike, doesn't track at all and is incredibly easy for the opponent to track and the damage is only significant if multiple targets are hit. It was nerfed a long time ago and was never reevaluated when Lightening Surge and Consecration were introduced. Speaking of Consecration. It too is insane. It one shots (when paired with the right aspects and mods) and has the tracking of a bloodhound! A hunter dodge (unless using bakris) doesn't cover enough ground to avoid the insane distance and tracking. The only redeeming quality of the Arcstrider subclass used to be the ability to deflect shots and supers so while not the best offensive in the world of roaming supers it made for a nice defensive/offensive hybrid, but that too has been nerfed to a point of shall we say psychotic laughter...lol. Anyone who uses Arcstrider knows all to well the word "misadventure". You pop behind cover, come out twirling facing a single opponent dead ahead, and you're thinking, "That's right, blow through your ammo" I'm waiting for my opening and two shots in you just magically drop wondering wtf. Look at the kill feed to see "misadventure". There used to be a time when you could effectively deflect/block nova bombs, and that is no longer the case. It wasn't a skill that many who attempted to run the subclass had, but for those of us who to the time to learn the timing and angles it was a real "high" to take on. It simply doesn't exist anymore. Even deflecting Revenant storms is more difficult and (no pun intended) hit and miss. These are all things that aren't new about the subclass yet to this day when I effectively block/deflect supers I get spammed with messages accusing me of cheating and that I'm being reported; why? It's simple really. Because NO ONE runs the class anymore and those that do are clueless, meanwhile I put in the work to learn the class and am saddened and let down daily because of all the ridiculous changes that were made unnecessarily. But you know what?, I won't quit it. I won't be found switching to the "cheese" that is the void and solar subclasses, because I like a challenge and I feel pretty damn good when I can defeat all the cheese with this -blam!- subclass. I get my -blam!- kicked continuously but that's ok, it balances out when I do get the "W" knowing I worked my -blam!- off for it. I know this was a long comment but I really feel the community needs to stop griping about each class and subsequent subclasses and get on bungie for "dumbing down" the game as a whole. What do I mean when I say "dumbing down"? There used to be a time when PvP was a great balance between ability use and gun use, one supporting the other. That's no longer the case. Too many casuals and pve players came in complaining that crucible was too hard and that everyone was too sweaty for them to have a good time, yadda yadda. So bungo decided it was a good idea to level the playing field and make it so that as long as you can mash a button and throw your ability you're going to get kills. Well that backfired! All that did was turn the uber players into uber elites. Now, not only can they mow you down with weapon handling, controller muscle memory, and mnk mapping they now have "no brain" abilities they can spam at you too . Womp Wah...... The reality is, Bungie should have had a tiered "end game pvp" ranking system from the start. Competitive and trials should have been divided into two sets of matchmaking, much like they did with strikes and grandmasters. If you weren't of a certain rank you couldn't even que. If you don't fight your way up to the higher ranks you are still rewarded the same for ranking within your own tier. something along those lines. I would love to see competitive return to "pre collision and even pre rift" days. Survival was great and if Bungie felt so strongly about offering something else in the playlist then old school elim would be welcomed with open arms. Competitive right now is an absolute -blam!- show. Collision was a bad mode before and it's even worse now. It rewards camping and the very thing this thread is complaining about; ability spamming. The last time I truly felt PvP was in an ok place was back when they first tested the "transmat special" . I forget which season it was but it has been awhile. There was a sense of balance then. You earned your special by dealing damage with your primary and the ammo went straight into your gun, not dropped on the ground and wasted 90% of the time. There was a nice variety of subclasses being used and there seemed to be a few meta guns in every weapon type. It was nice. Of course there were issues as there always will be but they were issues that could be overcome. There I'm done...lol Arcstrider Hunters Rule, Titans eat crayons and Warlocks lick windows! Prove me wrong! :-P

So long as I stay out of Crucible I have no complaints about PvP balance. If I do not observe it, Crucible remains in a state of constant and simultaneous balance and unbalance. [i][b]Schrödinger’s Crucible…[/b][/i]

All classes are viable and have subclasses that enjoy great and consistent success at the highest levels of pvp competition. The vast majority have no idea what they are doing in Crucible. Why should it matter what they are using? The illiterate bunch are often reliant on their favorite content creator's build. A decent player kills a Hunter every bit as often as they die to one. A weak player, who is going to die often either way, dies most often to Hunters cause they are the most common. Doesn't make them the best. The crucial and interesting bits escape most players. [b][u]What are the subclass distributions of those players that have the highest win rates?[/u][/b] Are there subclasses from each class represented in that pool? [u]Consider the complexity of one's role in the battle[/u] and how that contributed to the win condition throughout the game. But the masses [b][i]can't[/i][/b] know these things because then there would be no diversity amongst those few that remain. So the vast majority should continue to under perform unless reliant on meta builds as defined to them. They should compete with those also dependant on these cookie cutter builds to see who can actually use them. And those that choose to read, improve, and rely on themselves and their team will continue to excel over others.

If you think hunters are overpowered in PvP, then the solution is simple: create a hunter build

Let hunter be agile but you can nerf the annoying crap like invis, smokes and tempest strike. I would even say give the lw knives a tracking nerf. Aside from the cheesy stuff on hunter I would rather play warlock since it is more consistent with the rift. The hunter buffs gives it some valuable consistency.

No

Agreed

Only if you buff them in PvE, too.

Titans are better at holding down areas than any other class generally speaking and excel at close quarters. Warlocks excel at area denial, self sustain/ support, and air superiority. Both of those classes are more often than not MUCH more valuable than hunters in PvE either due to damage potential, team support, or survivability. Hell, someone on reddit made a post saying out of the 915 teams that completed the contest versions of Desert Perpetual (whether it was throughout the whole raid or just the final encounter isn't specified), less than 11% were hunters, and of the 414 teams that only had 2/3 classes, just over 99% were without a hunter, less than 1% a titan, and 0% a warlock. If that data is accurate, that should be undeniable proof hunters need buffs/ reworks across the board because I could see a slight "margin of error" or whatever to the point it's almost even, not so large that hunters are basically useless in PvE if we go just by those numbers. And what do hunters have? The stat changes in EOF were a nerf to hunter movement and in several cases their class ability uptime. For the longest time, they could be easily outran/ outmaneuvered by the "mage" and "brawler/ tank" and I'm pretty sure both can still do this to hunters. Hunter supers are easier to shut down/ avoid than either of the other classes, some often don't even work right like Arc Staff and Moebius Quiver. No reliable, if any immediately available class specific CC like what warlocks and titans have with things like Shiver Strike or whatever the Voidlock melee is. Few to no methods of team wiping without 1-2 set ups first. So if they should be at a disadvantage in air combat, CC/ ad clear, boss damage, survivability, speed, grenades, melee, super, and even now class abilities on top of being the only class that actually felt the mobility nerfs from EOF, what else should they excel at that would have them live up to the "fantasy" Bungie wants of hunters? That fantasy they stated basically being they want hunters to be like the rogue/ sharpshooter. And what are they typically known for in games? Being slippery as hell and hitting where it hurts when people least expect it. So... What do you actually expect? If hunters should be beaten in most if not every other way, then they need to excel in ways to avoid damage and excel in gunplay. As for your complaints about invis, Knucklehead Radar, and Stompees? This is literally the first time I've ever heard someone complain about KR and Stompees, and as for invis? Titans have their barricade which can give overshield or bolt charge. Warlocks have their rifts that can boost weapon damage or heal AND give an overshield. Hunters just get a reload or melee energy back. Which would you say is more valuable even not accounting for aspects? And invis is literally all Nightstalker aspects give. Grenade builds have been nerfed hard on hunters so not many people use things like Shinobu's Vow or Ahamkara's Spine either because their lethality isn't buffed enough or the energy returns aren't worth it. A melee build is only worth building into in pvp if you're using Athrys since any other ability/ exotic is too risky, is only good in PvE, or is heavily reliant on your weapon like Lightweight knives and SSHCs. So what do hunters bring to the table to justify either a nerf to their only effective means of survival- or at least building into on Nightstalker, or a hefty buff to other classes? Hell, the only reason people have even been complaining about invis for ages wasn't the ability itself but the frequency of it. And the only reason it gets so much usage/ complaints now is because: * On The Prowl gives it potentially on every kill and you can extend your invis by staying in the cloud. * Trapper's Ambush when combined with Omnioculus for extra melee/ invis and faster melee regen. * Radiant Dance Machines getting that rework, allowing it to store up to 21 seconds of invis at a time, not including extra charges gained after each use. The previous 2 points basically invalidate the current functionality of Graviton Forfeit, which is supposed to increase your invis duration, melee recharge, weapon reload, and class stat while invisible. The very exotic MADE for invis is worse than the others, and literally all Nightstalker has to offer is the ONE THING any complains about on it. Here's a better idea, wait to see what Bungie does to help every class live out the "fantasy" and how they, as they've stated, will address how reliant Hunters are on invis later rather than nerfing them into the ground while D2 is at it's lowest point ever or buffing two classes that already offer a lot more. Until then, if hunters should be inferior in most if not every way that matters in PvE, then it's only fair they "dominate" in pvp. Otherwise before buffing the other classes, they should buff/ rework hunters enough to truly keep up in all content in PvE first in what is primarily a PvE game, THEN balance as needed because any buffs you'd demand on the other classes will just widen the gap there.

Give me your matches... Hunters are so easy to counter. I'd take an all hunter lobby any day of the week. All I get is titan and warlock and for me personally those are the worst most oppressive games ever.

It’s refreshing to know no matter how low the population gets there will always be a bot on the forums crying about pvp

Depending on your view, you can make for and against arguments on all classes and how balanced they are. The ever increasing power fantasy is impossible to keep up with. I agree some Hunter components need some tuning. With that said, when you play the top Warlocks and Titans in the world- even as a Hunter, they can roll you.

Your POV lacks nuance. 1) "Hunters" as a whole don't need a nerf. Certain Hunter subclasses or abilities should possibly be adjusted, but there are Hunter subclasses that should probably be buffed. 2) Titans and Warlocks have incredibly potent options in PVP right now. On Titan, you have: Arc Titan + Knockout + Bolt Charge... Behemoth Titan Ice Spam (the neutral game of this classs is also very good)...Primlsmaric Titan with Knockout and Shiver Strike. On Warlock, you have: Void Warlock + Child of old gods + enhanced axion bolts + 2 melees that basically instant kill... On Solar, you have. Well, surely you know about Solar lol. And Strand Warlock is also very good atm with the ability to escape from most situations with Weavewalk. Point is, you should be asking for speifcific nerfs and buffs... Not wide-sweeping nerfs to entire Classes.