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10/2/2025 8:35:41 PM
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One thing I'll say for making streamers the de facto voice of our community: The streamers are mostly high level, high skill players, they don't experience the same level of frustration that us low and average skilled players do, they can't comment on it because they can't see it.
Same with the hardcore players and grinders who are still playing the game; our idea of sweat is their idea of breeze. The hardcore players don't see the problem because they don't have the problem; the problem is for us, the casuals who just like jumping in, killing a few hundred Vex, and getting a neat weapon.
I sort of wish we could come to some sort of consensus on this as a community, a way to quantify our frustrations beyond pointing at player counts and saying "See? This is why people are leaving."
The D2 player base is disparate, we're all different skill levels, and pushing all of us to play at the same level is going to be frustrating for those of us who can't cut it. If you think of a bell curve, we're all being asked to play at the right hand side, and many of us just can't.
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They do see the problem but they enjoy the stuff being gatekept from everyone else. I think you are supposed to be impressed by their prowess and the loot only they can own or something? In reality its just a video game and most people will leave and play something else once they realise the best stuff is gatekept.
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I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt: If you regularly play at a high level with a clan that regularly plays at a high level, you might not see the problems/difficulty with low level content. What's hard for us is easy for them, and I doubt they see a problem with what they consider "easy" content. If you don't struggle, you might not believe there's a struggle to be had, y'know? Meanwhile I do agree with you about the problem of sequestering Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear behind the level grind; the carrots are meant to keep us on the treadmill, but if we're not getting those carrots, then why stay on the treadmill? If we're busting our butts in hard-for-us content, and getting Tier 2 and Tier 3 drops for it, or if we've grinded for a hundred hours only to get Tier 3 drops, that's not going to keep players playing. The game needs to be more rewarding for low end players, something to keep us playing, too. My solution would be to detach loot from Light Levels, and start dropping Tier 4 loot at Expert level and above. The Master and Grandmaster level players would still get their super special Tier 5s, but us mid players would still get cool loot, too. It may not be an ideal solution, but it'd be better than what we have now.
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I have weighed in on this several times in the past and it always seems to fall on deaf ears. Those of us like me who have played for thousands of hours and have done the pinnacle activities, Master content, Pantheon, Rite of the Nine's Ultimatum mode, etc. do not need to be the focus of who to make the standard baseline of the game for. Think of it as mountain climbing: If we are already at the top of the mountain obviously there is no more mountain to climb, and there is no need to build more mountain for us. What we need to do instead is either walk backwards down the mountain blindfolded (if we want to challenge ourselves), or we can help bring others up to our level, which is a much better experience for everyone. No need to make the mountain a steeper cliff face for the average climber when they already struggle up the paths that we found easy. I don't even want to think about those who can barely make it past the foothills, they need all the help they can get. To put it simply, make content easier. We can absolutely tie one arm behind our backs easily if we want to make the journey harder on ourselves for bragging rights. "I did it all with blue gear" or "I only used whatever randomly dropped" or even "I didn't use any abilities" and so on. If anyone says "it's too easy" then they have zero imagination or willpower to change out their broken builds or challenge themselves and that is no fault of a developer. Now if they want to make tools that allow us to do that easier, then I would not object to such, but stop forcing player's hands to drag out player time, which clearly is not working.
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Editado por l Xemnas: 10/4/2025 2:32:51 AMI'll never understand that mentality. Climb the mountain, then pull the ladder up behind you. Then claim skill issue to those that come after.
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It could be out of spite, or possibly an elitist mentality, or there is a chance that it might be a "tough love" mindset. Suffering may build character, but most people won't find that fun as the easy path is the well travelled one and simply won't bother to take the uphill route. As for those who are spiteful or elitist, most likely they are the "I already got mine and everyone else can get lost" type or "look at my shiny achievements and despair, peasant" type. Being selfish or prideful isn't something we can change about humanity unfortunately, so best to ignore such people.
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It's a difficult subject to talk about, because if you're a high skill player you don't see the problem, and if you're a low skill player the problem is you. I'm a low skill player, and I don't want to take anything away from players higher up the scale than me, I don't want to diminish their game for my benefit - but I'm also in a position where some of my favorite activities in Destiny 2, like Strikes and Onslaught, are now out of my skill class. I feel bad asking for the game to be made easier because I know there are players who love the difficulty; I just watched Datto and Cross have a fantastic time clearing what might be one of the most challenging raids in Destiny's history. (I don't know if it was, I don't raid, I have no point of comparison.) I want players like you to have content that challenges you! But I want multiplayer content that I can participate in, too. Elite players aren't the problem, the idea that all of us can become elite players is the problem. The current system means to graduate players into increasingly difficult content, and from a design standpoint that makes a lot of sense! But I also think a lot of us are bouncing off of those higher difficulty levels, and not finding the lower difficulty levels rewarding enough to want to play. But asking for lower difficulty is hard, because we know there's not a win/win solution to the problem, or we haven't thunk of one yet, anyway. We know that making the game easier isn't great for the top tier players, so we feel kind of bad just asking for it, and the elite players have every reason to speak against us. It's just a lousy situation.
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[quote]Elite players aren't the problem, the idea that all of us can become elite players is the problem. The current system means to graduate players into increasingly difficult content, and from a design standpoint that makes a lot of sense! But I also think a lot of us are bouncing off of those higher difficulty levels, and not finding the lower difficulty levels rewarding enough to want to play.[/quote] Very well said. As a lower to mid range player (though improving), I've spent the majority of my time playing solo very timidly. I came to gaming later in life. I'm not a natural athlete with the reflexes that come naturally. I've had to develop all of the ability I have the hard way, through pure repetition. I started Destiny late in the Witch Queen year. So much of this game for a long time felt really intimidating. I felt I was struggling in strikes (getting left behind 'cause I was slow or not speed running the maps,) so why on earth should I even think about stepping up to Nightfall?! I hated the idea of the Nether with its no health regeneration. I wasn't in an active clan to look for help. I really didn't want to lfg. I played it. I figured it out. The first few times it took me 2.5 hours to clear a single zone, including the boss. I was breaking every pot over and over and over for healing orbs. I was on the verge multiple times of quitting Nether in absolute frustration. I never did. As I got better and faster, I started doing 2 zones. Then all 3. I never made it through quickly, but I did get it figured out. It made me a better player. For other players, like the Y1D1 crew or those who've played a wide variety of games or those to whom gaming comes naturally, I'm sure even the harder difficulty version was easy. Final Shape was hard due to the mechanics that were introduced. Dunk dark motes or light motes in the right spot?? Do something with a shield?? I was confused. I finished, but never really "got it". After having played Rite of the Nine to jump into a "learning" version of dungeons, Prophecy landed in Rite. All of a sudden, dunking motes made sense. I understand why it was "a thing" in FS. I changed to a new clan, played some more Rite, then got asked if I'd fill in to make 6 in a teaching run of VoG. With great anxiety, I did. All of a sudden, shields made sense. I and my new clanmates loved the scalable difficulty that Rite made available. Explorer for sherpas with blueberries, or people still working on the dungeons. The intermediate (sorry, don't remember what it was called,) difficulty for those who wanted more of a challenge than the standard version of the dungeon. Then Ultimate for those who wanted a substantial challenge. My clanmates have been great sherpas, cheerleaders, and generous with answering questions and offering helpful advice. My skills have grown substantially (I feel) with their help. Hard content should be available for players who want it. Easy content should also be available. There is a sliding scale for every player on what qualifies as "easy" or "hard" for that particular individual. I'm currently playing master fireteam ops in the portal. I've just hit 350 light. The modifiers in the matchmade versions now are starting to hit the limit of my skills. I'm honest enough to admit the only way I'll play GM portal is with clanmates who'll play as a team. That being said, for those who want to play the GM or Ultimate difficulties, I am glad it's available for them. It should be. I have a lot of admiration for those who can. You've stated it perfectly that the biggest issue currently is designing a system that expects players to become elite. Do I expect to get T5 gear if I don't play above master?? No. Not at all. In past seasons/episodes, I have been able to play the seasonal activity and have it get easier, for me, as I progress. This year, I've hit the point where it isn't getting easier, it's getting harder.
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I think a lot of what Bungie sees online where players are soloing Raid bosses and speed running though activities are being unfairly skewed as "normal" when it's usually only between 1 to 15 percent of players, at best. We've worked for it, so of course it's easier for us. We have the gear, the years of accumulated knowledge, the button muscle memory, etc. Honestly, I think a lot of us have forgotten the climb to where we are now, or perhaps they want others to suffer as they had to build character, hard to say. However I honestly believe there is a way to compromise and allow players to shackle themselves with as many "training weights" as they want while still playing easier content within the same activity as someone who doesn't want a challenge. I just wish Bungie would do that instead of making something so convoluted that I get burn out just from having to select what modifiers I have to slot in for every single different activity. One of the best solo flawless content creators out there even posted a video earlier today directly regarding that and even he is tired of how much he needs to do just to play the way he wants, and offered a much simpler system using what is already in the game which Bungie shouldn't need to develop anything new.
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Thank-you for a refreshingly positive post as an elite player in a discussion about skill and difficulty. As a lower skilled and honestly not likely ever to be an elite player, I do and have always believed there should be hard and extra challenging content for those who want it. I have the utmost respect for those who solo, or solo flawless content that isn't necessarily intended to be played that way. Those who play the Contest modes. Or who, as you suggested, add creative difficulty by using "natural dropped gear" or "only blues". I believe Rite of the Nine, in terms of difficulty levels, was a step in a good direction. Explorer for the dungeon blueberries like me. The "normal" and "master" (??) difficulty of the dungeons outside of Rite. Then the expanded difficulty of the mid-range (sorry, don't remember what it was called) Rite version, and finally, the Ultimate version that was supposed to have been similar to contest difficulty. The Portal has certainly expanded the choices of difficulty modifiers available. The change to have it remember modifiers if you're grinding the same map is good. But, I don't want to play the same activity over and over and over. Having to reselect if I change activities is frustrating. I have been using the matchmade versions lately, and then avoiding playing when particular modifiers are active. The Portal does not seem to allow for a player to settle into the harder-for-them difficulty range and just stay there. It's a never-ending step up to feel rewarding. I've just hit 350 and am honest enough to admit GM is not for me. At least, not without clanmates who'll run as a team. I did a couple GM Portal yesterday for damage and rewards drops testing within a mixed fireteam. The never-ending difficulty increase in Portal won't allow a less skilled player to settle in and practice and have it be rewarding. At your end of things, the adjustments needed to make it harder to play (and more fun for you), sound frustrating. I know the power grind gets slower and slower, which is less rewarding. I don't know what the solution(s) are to the current state is, but I believe the extra fixed difficulty steps more like Rite may have been a better direction.
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[quote]I think a lot of what Bungie sees online where players are soloing Raid bosses and speed running though activities are being unfairly skewed as "normal" [/quote]
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Indeed. Bungo somehow seems to think 1 "elite" is worth hundreds or thousands of average players, somehow forgetting that economics of scale mean something.
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[quote]I sort of wish we could come to some sort of consensus on this as a community, a way to quantify our frustrations beyond pointing at player counts and saying "See? This is why people are leaving."[/quote] I agree about needing the full community sentiment; but a [b]huge[/b] portion of the problem is Bungie (and many other studios) [i]never[/i] bother to actually poll the community. It should be a standard practice to poll players [i]in the game client[/i] before signing off on major changes. Look at Jagex and OSRS; that's the way to do it.
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Seconded. It would be nice if Bungie asked us, the whole community, not just the forum users and folks on social media, what our opinions on the game are, what's working for us and what isn't. Each of us can only speak for ourselves, I can write a forum post, but I can only write it for myself, I have no idea if I'm speaking from a place of consensus or from the outside, and upvotes only tell so much. A good, in depth, community-wide poll would go a long way, I think. Not a long way for us (though it would be nice to be asked!), a long way for Bungie, give them some more data points to go on than just "User 'DestinyKiller9937' thinks we're all blamheads." Unfortunately that's not something the community can do for ourselves, we need Bungie to put the polling in place themselves. And yes, preferably directly in the game client, to cut down on the static and the noise. Bungie: If you write it, we will click. We all want this game to be a success, but none of us can speak for anyone but ourselves; some community outreach and polling would tell you things that we can't.
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Exactly. Sample a group of middling players and get their input. That's more likely to represent a significant proportion of the customer base.
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In game (as where we would see polls) is actually pretty vital to the whole thing: not everyone goes to forums/Xitter/Reddit to see them if they/links to them are posted there, and emails go through so many filters that the majority of people won't have configured in the exact way to get poll links in their main inbox (e.g. I'm 99% sure all non-security emails from Bungie go into my Gmail's 'Promotions' folder). The ingame client is where every player will at least see that the poll exists.
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I agree. My ha4dcore gaming days are behind me, I have grandkids and a job and wife. I will put in the time, but I dont want to always be challenged, I want to come home from work and have fun and game and chill. More times then not now with destiny i get more mad when I play because everything is so bad nd instead of fun new stuff that rewarding im stuck with old stuff and a scoring system that makes me play harder content so as my power goes up my character is weaker. No fun, just a mindless grind to make the number go us playing con5ent that's harder nd now fun. Remove the scoring system. Let us add good or bad modifiers as we wich and give us good loot no matter what mods we use. Take away timers or make them optional as well at limited revives. For those badass hard-core players that want all the challenge they can get, let them put on all the bad mods they want. For people like me, let me put on some good mods, and maybe. Bad one or 2 just for shits and giggles, and let us get our loot and level up. This would be better for everyone. They say we can play our way, but with the current system its more like pick your punishment b3cause every run I do is punishment. I play because I have put too much time and money into this game to just give up, but im not too far from saying screw it because again, I dont have fun anymore.
