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9/5/2021 2:09:44 PM
225
This is why we can never get away from a hand cannon/shotgun meta….
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And not stow the weapon, And not die. And change your play style from an AR user to basically a sniper. Whereas: Crimson heals you after every kill. Ace of Spades just requires you to reload after one kill to get six time-unlimited bonus damage rounds. Thorn give you free damage over time, and a partial reload after kills where you pick up the remnant. Oh and it synergizes with necrotic grips to boost the DoT effect…. But hey, there’s no double-standard…. No….
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1. Not an excuse for it to be busted. And 2 kills for the best LFR in the game is not a fair trade. 2. Vex gives you a perk that's a 19% damage boost, along with an accuracy and a stability buff. Along with snowballing incredibly easily into a primary ammo LFR with 100 AA. 3. Crimson doesnt have the best and class range, and the best in class AA, and the best in class damage boost, and the ability to switch into the best LFR in the game. Sure, cherry pick each individual aspect, then they're fine. But looking at the whole, it's a problem. It does all you just listed, in one package. No one wants it nerfed in pve, I've said that many times when talking to people about it. No one wants another HC meta. It's just idiotic from a balance standpoint for one gun to be the best auto AND the most consistent and easy to use LFR in the game.
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In the minds of this community any weapon that is NOT a HC but competes with HCs for dominance is "busted" by definition. Whether that makes any objective sense or not. ...and with VM that characterization makes no objective sense given what kind of weapon it is, and where it is in the loot hierarchy. In fact, you could make the argument that it is still underpowered based on its position in the loot hierarchy....and its only being positioned where it is right now because it IS a primary, and Bungie knew it would show up in PVP. So----like other top tier primaries---its held at best-in-class status. IOW. If Vex were another hand cannon, we wouldn't be having this debate. But its basically an auto rifle....so its competitiveness is a "problem".
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Okay? What does that matter? The gun being an auto has nothing to do with why people what it nerfed. If it was JUST the best auto, no one would care. But, it's the best auto, with the best damage boost AND the best LFR ontop. That is the problem. Currently it sits on the top of all pvp metrics in terms of kill percentage and headshot kills. The only thing holding this gun back is that 2% droprate. That is it. Sure, it's where it's at because it's a primary. But also a special weapon, but also the best LFR. So sure, it's good because it's a primary, but that primary is an entire loadout in and of itself. Once again. It being an auto has nothing to do with it being broken. Vex is literally an entire loadout in one gun. Not only that, but it's the best in both aspects. Name me a gun that does what Vex does. That is simultaneously the best of 2 separate weapon classes, while using primary ammo.
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[quote]The gun being an auto has nothing to do with why people what it nerfed. If it was JUST the best auto, no one would care. But, it's the best auto, with the best damage boost AND the best LFR ontop. That is the problem.[/quote] ITS A RAID EXOTIC. [quote]Okay? What does that matter?[/quote] Your own words are why it matters. Because it is basically an auto rifle, suddenly having best in class features and being competitive in PVP is INTOLERABLE. Never mind that AoS has best impact, best range, best reload, AoE damage with precision kills and gives you SIX bonus damage rounds WITH NO TIME LIMIT.... ...if you reload after ANY kill, as long as you dont' stow the weapon. Yet NO ONE complains about it because it is a HAND CANNON. It matters because there is a CLEAR and OBNOXIOUS double-standard. One extremely lax one that HCs get judged by....and the standard that every OTHER primary gets judged by. ...and the second any of those other weapons start to be able to effectively compete against hand cannons they are are deemed "busted". Because----apparently----hand cannons should always be at the top by divine right.
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The only other raid exotic in destiny history that showed this type of power was Vex before it got nerfed back in d1 y1. Even at that, a majority of sweats say they'd take this over that any day. A much better example would be pinnacle weapons, incredibly strong weapons, yet are difficult to get. So by your logic, can I have pre nerf recluse back? The fact you keep trying to compare Vex to Ace shows me you just want to be contrarian here. People are using Vex more than Ace. Your entire point is moot. You have still yet to address that. Why, if Ace is so massively overpowered, are people using Vex so much more? Why, if HCs are the absolute meta right now, why is there a sidearm and a pulse doing better than all handcannons? I'm still yet to be given an example of a gun that does what Vex does as good if not better. If you can't answer those questions, don't reply.
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He has yet to address vex being at the top of PvP metrics yet it sits at a 2 percent drop rate. Not to mention only a fraction of the community has even stepped into VoG let alone complete it. So what we have here is a gun that statistically a literal fraction of a percent of the community have sitting at the top of crucible metrics...if that’s not a problem idk what is.
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Yes I did. Pay attention. I addressed when I said "loot hierarchy"...and the fact that the weapon was released in an underpowered state, and is still arguably IN an underpowered state given where it is in the loot hierarchy. Eyes of Tommorrow, Anarchy, Ten K Voices. Then you have Dungeon exotics like Xenophage, Whisper of the Worm, etc. These weapons were difficult to get, and were the best weapons in the game at various times. By that standard, VM should be one of the best weapons in the game right now....but it isn't. The reason WHY it isn't, is because Bungie doesn't want it to break PVP like it did in Y1 of D1. So they released it in a ridiculously underpowered state....then buffed it tot the same "best in class" position that WORLD DROP Exotic primaries like AoS, Crimson, and Chaperone, and quest Legnedaries like Felwinter's Lie had. But the way this community operates, this is STILL intolerable because WE SIMPLY CANNOT HAVE ANYTHING THAT IS META THAT ISN'T A HAND CANNON OR A SHOT GUN WITHOUT TRIGGERING IMMEDIATE NERF CRIES. In this case, the weapon has only been tuned like this for two weeks, and is JUST starting to become part of the meta. Showing how persistent and consisttent this anti-AR bias is. The last AR meta we had (600 RPM AR) lasted only a season....and the best in class exotic (Hard Light) got nerfed in about a month. Tick tock. Tick Tock. Tick tock, tick tock. Can set my f-ing watch to it.
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Editado por RTshadows: 9/9/2021 11:29:54 AMYou still didn’t address a damn thing. Any weapon (hand cannons included) that is represented by a minuscule amount of the player population topping crucible metrics is a -blam!- problem, and needs to be looked at. And it is arguably the best in slot PvE weapon right now. Primary mode is doing special weapon DPS and linear mode is doing heavy weapon DPS, all with no ammo constraints.
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Editado por TheArtist: 9/9/2021 11:51:07 AM[quote]You still didn’t address a damn thing. Any weapon (hand cannons included) that is represented by a minuscule amount of the player population topping crucible metrics is a -blam!- problem, and needs to be looked at.[/quote] Asked an answered. The weapon was released in an under powered state....and then buffed to a level of power such that it can be countered by weapons that are much more easily acquired in the game. Like AoS and Crimson. Which is why I keep harping on those weapons. ...and the double-standard around why Vex is a "problem" while those weapons that have dominated the meta on PC for years....somehow aren't. [quote]And it is arguably the best in slot PvE weapon right now.[/quote] No its not. https://guardian.gg/2/weapon-stats/2/73/0/2021-08-08/2021-09-08 https://guardian.gg/2/weapon-stats/3/73/0/2021-08-08/2021-09-08 https://guardian.gg/2/weapon-stats/3/37/0/2021-08-08/2021-09-08 Note the last link. On PC in Survival (high level play) Ace of Spades is so dominant by such an OVERWHELMING margin...that Guardian.gg doesn't even bother to LIST any other weapons in the kinetic slot. Since it accounts for 92% of all kills. ...and Vex doesn't even show UP in the energy slot until you get to console play. That is how dominant HCs are, and how EASY they are to use in PC play. [i] [b]OH...and do we need to review what exotic perks AoS has...so we're clear as to WHY it is so overwhelmingly dominant??[/b][/i]
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All of those links you posted are only relevant to PC..🤦♂️ There’s a special term we use when we label 1/3 (I guess 1/4 counting stadia) of the player pool as a whole to prove a point...cherry picking? When you flip to any of the consoles vex is in the top performing weapons for every game mode...including survival. Hell on Xbox vex is almost TIED with ace in usage. Ace is at 18 percent while vex is at 13...IN SURVIVAL. So what are we left with again? A weapon that is represented by such a minescule amount of the population it’s almost sub-atomic levels. What was the raid number? 10 percent of the population plays raids? Or something close to that...just in general, not just one. Vex has a 2 percent drop rate and based on the amount of forum posts about its shitty drop rate and the amount of upvotes each one has, it’s safe to assume not a lot of that 10 percent of the population have it. So what do we have? A sub-atomic size of the destiny population ruling around in the crucible matching crucible metrics of weapons that are obtained from completing a campaign and have been around for years...that’s a problem
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Editado por TheArtist: 9/9/2021 12:28:36 PMNo they aren’t. And what you are saying, once again, isn’t true. Top left is a submenu where you can examine stats specific to each platform. At the very bottom are picture of the dominant/meta weapons on a platform AND playlist specific basis. Like I said. Asked and answered.
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Editado por RTshadows: 9/9/2021 2:04:46 PMYes...And I can tell you didn’t look at those lists when you claimed it isn’t a top weapon in survival, hoping I wouldn’t look at it, which isn’t true...
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Editado por TheArtist: 9/9/2021 2:09:54 PMWrong again.... But you are consistent. https://guardian.gg/2/weapon-stats/3/37/0/2021-08-08/2021-09-08 https://guardian.gg/2/weapon-stats/1/37/0/2021-08-08/2021-09-08 https://guardian.gg/2/weapon-stats/2/37/0/2021-08-08/2021-09-08 Its not even the top weapon IN ITS SLOT on ANY platform in Survival....and doesn't even make the top 3 IN ITS SLOT in survival until you get into console play. [i][b]Where its usage is outpaced by Felwinters Lie (even after its nerf) by a factore of 2 to 3 TO ONE. [/b][/i] Now. [b]Are you ready to give up yet....??[/b]
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Editado por RTshadows: 9/9/2021 3:05:23 PMNo I’m not done. Because your entire argument is “the weapon isn’t in the top weapons in a singular game mode on a singular platform so it’s not a problem” You literally kill your whole premise by bring up console play. The fact that you’re comparing a primary weapon to a special weapon kills your whole premise...again “2/3 platforms disprove my whole premise, but -blam!- it, it’s not a problem” -Kelly probably I’m done here dude
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Editado por TheArtist: 9/9/2021 3:07:14 PM[quote]Because your entire argument is “the weapon isn’t in the top weapons in a singular game mode on a singular platform so it’s not a problem”[/quote] No. That is not my "entire arguement". [b] In fact it isn't even my CENTRAL argument. Which is the weapon is positioned in the sandbox on-par with other best-in-class exotic primaries. (Which is arguably still UNDERPOWERED given its a raid exotic and harder to obtain, and higher in the loot hierarchy. [/b] Classic straw man tactics on your part. The only reason I even raised that issue is to counter the HYSTERICAL arguments that "Its all you see in Survival. Its all you're going to see in Trials" ...and there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that its being overused. ALL the data shows that its is a META weapon on par with weapons like Ace of Spades, Crimson, Chaperone, and Felwinter's Lie (which is still meta even after the nerf to High-impact shotties and the nerf to weapon handling with sliding.) Which---once again---shows that this is a MASSIVE over-reaction to this weapon after only two weeks. One that is unsupported by fact....and PERFECTLY in keeping with this community's ongoing bias against any non-hand cannon meta. [quote]“2/3 platforms disprove my whole premise, but -blam!- it, it’s not a problem” -Kelly probably[/quote] ...and that is why this coversation is a waste of time. You aren't even engaging with what I'm actually saying. But instead consructing a strawman...and then trying to argue against that. Badly. [quote]I’m done here dude[/quote] Bye.
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Classic misunderstanding of logical fallacies 😂 “I’m gonna claim straw man even though he’s been directly replying to all my -blam!-....-blam!- it I’m out of ideas”-probably Kelly, again
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Editado por TheArtist: 9/9/2021 3:25:48 PM[quote]Classic misunderstanding of logical fallacies 😂[/quote] Yes. By you. https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Straw-Person.html [b] [i]This fallacy occurs when, in attempting to refute another person's argument, you address only a weak or distorted version of it. Straw person is the misrepresentation of an opponent's position or a competitor's product to tout one's own argument or product as superior. This fallacy occurs when the weakest version of an argument is attacked while stronger ones are ignored.[/i][/b] Only you didn't even bother to attack the weakest version of my argument. You went after a SIDE issue that was raised (correctly) in response to incorrect assertions that the weapon is being dramatically over used. Then failed to even address that side issue, as you continued to make incorrect assertions that I continued to beat back with hard numbers from one of the more reliable PVP data sources in the community. In short, VM doesn't even dominate its weapon SLOT....nevermind all weapon choices. Even the most CURSORY examination of the data shows---both in terms of overall usage---and in terms of particular weapons.... ...that the dominance is held by hand cannons....followed by shotguns.... ...and everything else is trailing by a curvature of the Earth. (ON PS you have to add up usage of the next three most common weapons in Survival ----Lorentz Driver, Vex, and Adored----before you finally top how often Felwinters is used.) [i]Next......[/i] My central argument---which the data supports conclusively---is that VM is a META weapon (its strong) that is positioned in the sandbox similarly to weapons like AoS, Crimson, Chaperone, etc.... Now if you want to address that issue (you can't really) have at it. If not....go troll someone else.
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Editado por RTshadows: 9/9/2021 3:34:42 PMAgain...your argument is no where near correct https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/db/insights This is a lot better of a picture. The red bar is the percent of kills the weapon makes up. The vex is ranked 11th is over all usage in comp yet is THIRD is total weapon kills. It out paces every weapon above it minus two(the ace and felwinters). In quick play it literally out kills everything despite being ranked third in usage So what we have here is a weapon that a sub-atomic number of the community has. Again, roughly 10 percent of the community has touched any raid (not just VoG) and the gun has a 2 percent drop rate. You do the math as to how few people have this thing. But yet, the vex mythoclast is out pacing SPECIAL WEAPONS (chaperone, riisewalker, adored, lorenz driver, and the stasis shotgun) that a large portion of the community has AND USES MORE in percentage of total kills. I’ll say that again, a PRIMARY weapon is out killing SPECIAL WEAPONS (many of which can be acquired from easy quest lines or focusing engrams/turning in tokens.) that are above it in usage metrics... This is a problem. Spin it how you want to cause I know you will, but it’s a problem.
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Battle of the experts. But here’s your problem…. Destinytracker is not a reliable source. They misrepresent the numbers on Crucible engagement and have done so for years. Combining Crucible and Gambit numbers into a single number that gets misrepresented as “Crucible” when it’s clearly not. So I believe** nothing** DTR says about population numbers unless it’s [i]independently[/i] corroborated by another source. If they’re willing to lie about engagement numbers, they are liable to lie about other things. In short. DTR blew their credibility.
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What does a third party website get out of lying about that? Good thing we’re not talking about population numbers... But anyways here’s one of the creators of the website saying otherwise years ago.. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/afbq6i/destinytracker_lying/
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Oh…and another thing. That Reddit post is over two years old and dates back to BEFORE DTR started cooking the books and started lumping in Gambit as pvp… and then just calling it all Crucible. So still not relevant.
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**Advertising dollars.** Especially when they are dependent upon staying on Bungie’s good side to keep access to the information that is the sites main draw. Next question?
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You mean the same information that bungie generates and has themselves? The same information that they’ve given to every other tracker website out there? It’s all the same info, it literally makes no sense for one tracker websites and one only out of the dozens out there to conspire to fudge numbers.
