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2/17/2019 9:16:31 PM
28
The symmetry doesn't make sense
So I'm not gonna lie, I never liked this interpretation of the light and Darkness. To me it always felt generic, and forced the reader to ask a question that they'll never be able to answer themselves.
For those that don't know, the symmetry was a theory created by the now infamous warlock Ulan Tan. The theory basically stats that the light and Darkness cannot survive without one another and that if one dies the other will die with it. Ulan Tan left the tower awhile after his theory started gaining traction. So far it seems like Bungie is really pushing this theory in their newest content releases, but I have a couple problems with this
Here's the thing, Ulan Tan is basically stating the obvious.... Light is the opposite of darkness, what an absolute genius am I right? How could we have been so blind! What fools we have been (I'll get back to this later). His theory also doesn't work in terms of the current political climate of the universe, and I find the entire theory incredibly lazy. So let's get to explaining each point one by one
1. It doesn't make sense yet: right now the traveler is our main source of light in the galaxy, but that's not to say the traveler is the light itself. According to the books of sorrow the light and the Darkness are both eldritch godlike entities that have been fighting one another over what they think is right for billions of years. That's cool right? Here's the thing though, the Darkness itself is hunting down the traveler... Not the light, but a single agent of the light. It's completely unbalanced, it would make more sense if the worm Gods focused entirely on the traveler while the Darkness was off fighting the light but that's not what's happening right now. The darkness is focusing solely on this tiny white ball that works for the light, that in itself is not symmetrical. It's the equivalent of the Light focusing solely on Xivu Arath and no one else, it makes no sense even if there's something oddly special about her in the eyes of the Light.
2. We're supposed to forgive Ulan Tan: In the latest warlock armor set from Tess we can read lore tabs describing how brilliant and wonderful Ulan was, and how sorry we should be for not believing in him. This is what I call... BULL! why the hell should I care Bungie? Oh congratulations Ulan! You leaned that darkness is the absence of light! What a smart boy, want a cookie???? NO! He stated the obvious! He's not a martyr and he most certainly isn't entitled to anything higher then "he said a thing" in the eyes of Guardian society!
3. It's generic as hell: ok stick with me here, I know that Destiny started off as super generic with it's whole light vs dark theme but just hear me out. While I agree that initially the whole concept was very simplistic and uneventful, it wasn't untill the books of sorrow that this theme was evolved and remade. In the books it basically says that the Light and Darkness are more then just entities, but power's, a place, and an ideology. With that it went from mindless space magic to something more Deep (wordplay). You can kill a person but not the belief that person had, you can contain a place but not the raw power it's filled with. By making the Light and Darkness more then just black and white space clouds they essentially made them immortal but without feeling overpowered. If we kill the Darkness then the ideology it believed in will still exist, same for the Light
Sorry if this was sloppy, I just got in the mood to write about this and I wanted to do it quickly before I lost it. Feel free to share your opinion below
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12 RespuestasPreface: I'm no lore master, but will be using what I do know as to my understanding. Our piece of the Light v Dark struggle is implied to be a fraction of the conflict between them as well as one small piece to a larger puzzle. The Traveller is being hunted by the Darkness for [i]stealing[/i] the Power it has, a story that mirrors that of Icarus who stole power from the gods. We do not know for certain how or why the Traveller did what it did. We do know that it had visited others such as the Fallen, however they weren't called Fallen then. Their plight is one we might end up sharing: that of a race granted god-like powers and technology, only to be abandoned and left to calamity. This knowledge is why certain Guardians and Lightbearers sought to learn more of this Darkness. Surely there is more to it. Surely it is not purely Evil in the same way one cannot call the Light of the Traveller purely Good. I think we'll fight a much deeper relationship between the two. Time shall tell.
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Editado por Of 1000 teeth: 2/20/2019 5:34:39 AMIt’s the opposite. Like “the glass being half-empty or half-full”. In exchange for having light, we harmonize the Darkness. Perhaps some would say, “well if we end the Darkness, then we would end the light, right?” But light can never be “ended”. And by extension, neither can the Darkness. The idea of ending one to end the other is a self-imposed paradox. But what if those with light could use darkness to grow towards infinity? The writers of Ulan-Tan know what they are doing. Anyone not controlled by their ego can see it. Of course you knew that, right Op? [spoiler]Or perhaps [b]you[/b] are incapable of thinking outside yourself, hence this post.[/spoiler]
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5 RespuestasIn summary, the reason Ulan Tan’s ideas were important is because he essentially said that the only way to win was to stop playing the Darkness’s game - and trying to prove a single binary way of being; which to do so, would require the abandonment of the light.
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8 RespuestasThere are teleporting alien zombies everywhere, and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense
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I have been trying to convince people of this for a while (good luck).
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1 RespuestaI like the idea that light and darkness are basically 2 tribes of spacefarers. Their universe died a long time ago, but they have escaped somehow (through a wormhole?) The traveler is a pocket universe structure that contains perhaps a planetary system, as maybe their physics (coming from a different universe may cause this effect) cannot function properly in our universe. But more than i shield, their physics alter our space and reality. Just like the darkness, but they don't care about all the para causal no sense that follows them. Darkness descent from a tribe of conquerors, and the traveler contains the tribe of peaceful people. Darkness will try to reshape the universe in their image, and the traveler actually tries to not interfere. Perhaps Darkness is chasing the light/traveler because by the sword logic, that is their LAST enemy (being the only two survivors of a dead universe). If they let the traveler live, then at the end, their logic is not complete, since the strongest (clearly them) will not win. Once they kill the traveler, they are complete, if they don't care too much about this universe.
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6 RespuestasWhat makes you think that the triangles are the actual darkness and not just what the traveler is?
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3. I fail to see how this is a criticism? Bungie have simply made the ideological arguments manifest through physical conflicts. We are literally fighting for our way of life on metaphysical terms.
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2. You have missed the philosophical point of Ulan’s teachings. His point was not so simple as one force being the anthesis to the other; but rather, that in a world where power creates power, the only way to turkey achieve piece is for all sides to lay down their weapons as it were. This is akin to the school of thought IRL that call for the dismantlement of all nuclear weapons etc. His whole point, which although somewhat obvious to us, is that simply wielding the light might be causing the issue that we are trying to solve; thus in searching for a solution, we create the problem. Keep in mind, lore wise such a thought would be madness. You try telling a group of PTSD vets in the middle of a hostile invasion to lay their guns down.
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I’ll address these point by point. 1. The Traveller is an instrument of the light, as are our Guardians. To say that the darkness is fighting an instrument of the light is no less inaccurate than to say that an Army A fought a Turret for Army B. This statement in no way establishes absolute limits to, or even the jurisdiction of either power. Yet, as the turret, this is how you would view things.* As guardians, we are fighting the Darkness, as is the Traveller; but seeing as we have not had “The Darkness” established as an actual entity or a noun proper, what we are in fact fighting is instruments of the darkness. The Hive (and their Worms), the Vex, etc. are all aspects or tools of the darkness, and in the case of the Hive/Taken wield the Darkness; but they are not the Darkness itself no more than we are the Light. At this point in the lore, the Darkness is an obscure conceptual boogie man. It’s kind of like how the US had a “War on Terror”. It’s not like they were fighting Terror itself, or even those in a state of terror, but rather those who used terror as a tactic. *I am assuming the turret is autonomous with some sort of sufficient AI.
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6 RespuestasDarkness isn't the opposite of light, it's the absence of light
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I find it funny that in the last cut scene after the Traveler awakens and the pulse hits the dark triangles, they turn on their interior lights to start their journey towards us.
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Ulan Tan....I've been in that b@stards cave a gajillion times for scrapper bounties. I'd like to make the douchebag eat a bloody enhancement core!
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1 RespuestaEditado por Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 2/17/2019 9:51:57 PMIn general it’s not particularly original. I don’t think that makes it bad though. Life is gray. The characters on both sides and how they operate within the confines of their alignment or lack thereof are what make a story like this interesting. Rise and fall of light and dark. Constant struggle for balance that never seems to stick. I really like what have when it comes to this, but this is why I think the gameplay model for Destiny is impractical for telling such a story. There’s a lot they could do with it but it’s confined within the framework of a live service game. Oh how I wish it could break free of it in some ways and be less rigid.
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6 RespuestasGood stuff. Vessel’s and agents of these powers aside, Ulan Tan’s point was that the Light and Dark can’t exist without each other. This is strengthened by the creation of the Awoken. When the two powers clashed, they canceled each other out, and both the Traveler and triangle ships fell into a slumber. The Traveler and triangle ships seem to either be the highest servants of the Light and Dark, or the sources/embodiments of the Light and Dark. I’m leaning towards the second option, but we’ll have to wait for Bungie’s explanation
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A thought. Maybe the traveler ( if we assume it is the light) and the darkness are equally balanced, and to destroy the other, one must deplete all of its power, essentially destroying itself. OR,as you stated the traveler is not the only source of light. Perhaps what differentiates the two is that the traveler entrusted it's light to the guardians and ghosts, while the darkness only gives the power to commune with it. That might bring some do-gooder vibes to the traveler, and support how we awaken it. I know you might know all this, I just wanted to say it.
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4 RespuestasLol. That's because people believe the dark can be killed forever. They want a happy ending. But to give up our light to destroy the dark. That's an interesting thing there. To give up willingly the power. That is something truly magical. Willing to scafrice everything for the universe. That would bring a true end to destiny.
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This is an interesting topic, exactly the sort of thing I want to see more of on a Destiny Forum. What's it doing on the front page instead of the 19385th thread complaining about enhancement cores or comp?
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3 RespuestasThe 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses to make a universe ending Keyblade, sounds more compelling then "In the beginning, the Light pissed off the Darkness."
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5 RespuestasI get what you’re saying , but damn did Ulan steal your lunch money ?
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Editado por mdknyte: 2/18/2019 4:35:58 AMlol worm gods. I'd love to know how that meeting went down. intern trying to be funny: "you know what this light vs dark story needs? worm gods :D" * [i]silence...[/i] boss: "BRILLIANT!!!!"
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This is to introduce using dark and light powers as a means to be very powerful and bungie is really lazy in the full picture for story development since they lost some good story writers.
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2 RespuestasI remember the first peice of fiction I discovered this in, Transformers Armada during the battle with unicron. Remember? The hand drawn serries with the minicons? So good. Anyway, although I will say I think it makes sense, I do agree that it seems like the Light is the underdog in all of this and darkness had held their side without much compettition. Sure we have won many battles but humanity is still cornered and surrounded by the fallen, cabal, vex, hive, taken and now scorn. We are still losing in a sense. On the other hand, the symetry fails in that... While Light and Dark are in constant war, it is possible for one side or the other to overturn, and "win" for a moment and it is usualy during said time of "peace" by victory that a reconing ocurs, aka, the collapse.
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12 RespuestasNot all of D1 lore carries over, that’s why Luke Smith called it “comic book zero”. It’s not absolute. Always remember the new lore [i]replaces[/i] the older lore. D2 was flat out stated to be a soft reboot. That was the whole point behind the “folklore” line from the one writer. All the old version lore is “just what we believed” or whatever she said. Anything new, both the written lore and what we see in the game, that contradicts the old [i]replaces[/i] that lore. That’s how retcons work. Always keep that in mind. It makes figuring out stuff infinitely harder and means you [i]have[/i] to stay flexible. The BoS never stated what the [i]are[/i]. The Traveler was referred to as “a Traveler” and “divine presence of the Sky”. We don’t know any of the details about them as entities or their origins beyond that. At all. We’ve just made [i]assumptions[/i] to what those terms might mean. You should never treat assumptions as gospel. You’re boxing yourself in by doing that. You’re not changing your basic idea with new revelations. So of course it seems off to you. The game promotes Ulan-Tan for a reason. Don’t fight it because you don’t like it. That the Dark and Light can be destroyed means they [i]aren’t[/i] immortal or inviolate, doesn’t it? So you need to scrap all your ideas about what they are and just leave it a blank. Have ideas but don’t treat them as concrete. Look at the game and our Guardians change. We take on Darkness by action and intent. Not exposure from an outside influence or power. That directly implies they share the same power. Two sides of the same coin, not wholly separate. So that makes Ulan Tans idea much more clear doesn’t it? If they come from the same source then you have to extinguish both to get rid of just one. We don’t know the whole picture yet. Stay flexible and adapt as we learn more.
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Idk call me boring but I like the classic light vs dark thing and all this crap they got going on.
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2 RespuestasAs I've said many times before. The Traveler is an Agent of the Sky sure but is the only thing that possesses Light in the universe. Why? Because Light doesn't conquer, it needs things to exist so they can collect "energy" through death using servents to do the work and grow and spread. Light is the flipside of the Darkness coin, where the Deep wants Nothing to exist, so it seeks to recapture the Traveler, not destroy it for the power that it stole. In a perfectly balanced world, beyond our own physical realm. The Traveler, otherwise known as the Gardener stole power from the Deep, which resulted in "life" in the universe. The Deep has been after the Traveler ever since, and has been chasing it across the universe. The Traveler however, selects a race of mortals to bless so that they can worship it, devote themselves to it, and sacrifice themselves to it for it to gain strength. For it to gain experience with it's new powers. Cycle after cycle it did this until it found Humanity, and felt that Humanity was the best time to use it's new powers of the Deep, converted into a new form of Sky rebirthing the dead into a little drone. Because Death is the key to the Light. Those drone go on to form a link with another lost soul and form a bond, creating Guardians. Do you ever wonder why only the Light resurrections erase the memories of the risen? Scorn don't have this problem. The Darkness gives you a choice, to be Sworn and to serve or to be erased. Light removes that choice and chooses you, erases your memory, while it makes you it's vessel to serve. These two practices are the same, since they come from the same place. The Traveler is the one that fell from grace, and in so doing helped create the material world.. and just went with it from then on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(Gnosticism)
