No it doesn't avoid teams of low levels vs high ones. I can prove that. I was helping someone do their Refer-a-Friend thing, and we got a team of level 9's on the other team just because we had one low level. The rest of us were 40's. SBMM is meant to put players of similar skill, all in one lobby, regardless of level. And even then that doesn't work. I can attest that I get team-mates who seem to purposefully try to lose than win against team-mates that damn well want the win. I also have a feeling Destiny doesn't use a bracket or ladder system. I assume it's purely based on a number generated system or based on previous performance.

Actually if you go to guardian.gg it averages your teams elo vs your opponents elo, so if you say your 1300 elo and your teammates are lower like 1200 or possibly 1100 it expects you to carry your team cause your opponents might be around 1200 or 1250 for the avg. that's how it works it's still sbmm

It can do that, that's great. [b]But that isn't what SBMM is[/b]. SBMM is when players are separated into groups based on skill level, clearly, this isn't happening and players of all skill levels are playing together. The current matchmaking tries to put you into a team to try to [b]make the match as close as possible[/b], but it isn't segregating skill types.

[quote][b]But that isn't what SBMM is[/b]. SBMM is when players are separated into groups based on skill level, clearly, this isn't happening and players of all skill levels are playing together. [/quote] That's a pretty limited definition which ignores the reality of the player pool. If your version existed, players of varying skill levels couldn't party up and choose to play together. Since they clearly can, an attempt to create "evenly matched" teams is the only logical choice. If a three player fireteam varies in skill (which is likely), and gets matched against a group of two and a lone player, the second team will need a cumulative skill rating that is similar to the first team. The likelihood of the second team being three similarly skilled players is very unlikely. The lesson here is: There is no perfect match for your group of unique snowflakes. But a close match is more desirable than a situation where no skill consideration exists. This problem is far more complicated than most wish to admit. All that said, contrary to what many would say, there has never been a time when Destiny had zero skill consideration in its matchmaking system, and official sources say that skill consideration is currently as loose as it's ever been.

Yes... That's my point.

[quote]Yes... That's my point.[/quote] OK, but it seems you're asking for a situation where variably skilled friends can't play together, and that doesn't make much sense to me. If you could only group up with similarly skilled players, then social gaming options would be significantly limited.

Any time you make a fireteam, you're taking matchmaking into your own hands, obviously it's handled differently once you do that. What SBMM does (real SBMM, not the crap that people think is going on here) is prevents low level players from being brought into a team for the purpose of balancing that team to match the opponent. If a high level and a low level both opt in to the same match, it's handled how it was back in Jan/Feb, with the opposing team matching the high level player. The low level player effectively chose to play against other high level players.

That's [u]not[/u] how it worked back in January/ February. The only changes that have been reported since then are a larger tolerance for team skill ratings, and a higher emphasis on connection quality. Bungie's matchmaking systems have never prevented lower ranked players from choosing to play with higher ranked players across any of their games. Choosing to participate in a variably skilled fireteam, which by definition is essentially [i]all[/i] fireteams shouldn't preclude the system from attempting to find a close, fair match.

Yea, it was. https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/14271/7_Bungie-Weekly-Update--01212016 They temporarily implemented full SBMM at the end of last year without saying anything. But again, it didn't stop anyone from 'choosing' to play with who they wanted to play with. What it [i]did[/i] do was totally insulate those who went into Crucible solo from the high level players.

That's not what that article says. Solo queue players may regularly see a more "accurately" skill-rating matched group of players given one of the considerations in the matchmaking process is group size. It's obviously easier to match 12 solo queue players within a closer skill rating tolerance. But there have only been a few playlists in the history of Destiny that require solo queuing. For the majority of the matchmaking experience players are allowed to self-select into a group of variable skill, (which is essentially everyone that groups up), such players will by definition see a wider variety of player skill levels. Never has Bungie prevented self selected parties, and given they've always attempted to consider skill ratings when matching teams there has never been a scenario whereby low skilled players were perfectly insulated from players better than them. Yes, the tolerances for cumulative team skill scores were tighter previously, but that is not the same as preventing high and lower skill player from ever meeting in matchmaking, which is what I read you as suggesting is "true SBMM". A highly skilled player grouped up with several lower skilled players will meet a party that is generally somewhere between the respective skill levels of said first team so that each team's respective skill ratings are similar. [i]That makes sense.[/i] I hear what you're saying regarding definitively splitting up the player population and how it would create matches that are probably "more fair" when it comes to respective skill ratings. But there are far too many consequences attached to such a system that would prevent variably skilled players from choosing to play together. I've played games wherein I can't play with my friends because our rankings are too far apart, and I don't want that in Destiny. I support the necessary consideration of skill ratings to create matches that are as fair as possible under the circumstances, but Destiny has no publicly visible rankings for a reason, and I support that too.

Again, I have never said anything about preventing players from playing with who they want, I don't know where you're getting that from. [quote]A highly skilled player grouped up with several lower skilled players will meet a party that is generally somewhere between the respective skill levels of said first team so that each team's respective skill ratings are similar. That makes sense.[/quote] Yes, I agree. What I'm talking about is what you see now where low skilled players are matched with high skilled players to balance out against the opposing team. You see this regularly if you check the matches of high level players. People with a 2k elo are getting teamed up with 900's to balance against a group of 6 1400's. This brings the predicted win ratio to close to 50%, but this is being confused as 'SBMM', whereas SBMM wouldn't bring in a 900 just to make the team even. Obviously, if a 2k and a 900 are in a fireteam together, things are different, either going off of the host's skill or an average skill. This is closer to what we saw back in January and with Crimson Doubles, where the matchmaking was much more accurate (2v2's would be, after all)

[quote]Again, I have never said anything about preventing players from playing with who they want, I don't know where you're getting that from.[/quote] We're clearly mostly in agreement. But here's where I got the impression you're for limiting group access: [quote]What I'm talking about is what you see now where low skilled players are matched with high skilled players to balance out against the opposing team. You see this regularly if you check the matches of high level players. People with a 2k elo are getting teamed up with 900's to balance against a group of 6 1400's. This brings the predicted win ratio to close to 50%,[/quote] This generally only occurs when parties of significantly variable skill choose to enter matchmaking together, or the available competition is limited. After all, matchmaking can only match you up with players that are actively searching for a game in the same playlist as you at any given moment. Should the very highly skilled player be forced to wait for a better match? Should the larger group be forced to wait for a similarly skilled large group of equal size? How long is acceptable? [url=http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20745504371]Jeff Kaplan from Blizzard recently went into this problem regarding Overwatch's matchmaking system[/url] (which shares many similarities withDestiny's) and one of the key points he raises is there is no perfect match for any group of unique snowflakes. [quote]this is being confused as 'SBMM', whereas SBMM wouldn't bring in a 900 just to make the team even.[/quote] As above, how long should such players have to wait? Isn't a statistically fair match within a reasonable time frame better than waiting indefinitely? Generally, matchmaking could only exclude said lower skilled player it they weren't in a party with significantly mixed enough ability to warrant such a match. The system wont regularly match in a significantly below average solo queue player with a significantly above average solo queuing player. There are outliers, but that's exactly what such situations are: outliers. And judging the system on such instances isn't particularly just. [quote]Obviously, if a 2k and a 900 are in a fireteam together, things are different, either going off of the host's skill or an average skill.[/quote] Pretty much yep. I'd contend that mixed skill fireteams are noticeably more prevalent than significantly differently ranked solo queuing players getting matched together. [quote]This is closer to what we saw back in January and with Crimson Doubles, where the matchmaking was much more accurate (2v2's would be, after all)[/quote] Yes, I definitely agree that the likelihood of 2v2's being more accurately matched is higher given fewer variables. However crimson doubles is hardly an example of the standard crucible experience given it was a limited time event. And yes, team skill scores were constrained by tighter requirements previously, but neither then nor now was the variably skilled group problem perfectly solved. I don't believe it can be without limiting players' ability to self select their fireteams. I guess my point is, [i]this ain't easy[/i], to which you appear to agree. It's seems to me we're mostly on the same page. Which given how hostile some in this forum are to supporting any skill consideration at all is a nice change of pace. I hope your matchmaking experience is above average 😉

I'm smelling what you're cooking brother but I don't think these guys are going to understand unfortunately...

Yea, there's just (an understandable) confusion over the SBMM system. The best I can do is explain it in detail.

Absolutely, also can I ask your take on KD balancing. Is it really a thing? Engineering matches to ensure a 1.0 KD (especially in yr 2. It seems that when players do well for a few matches it tries to guarantee a loss, a massive loss at that. When I feel that it happens I'll check a stat website and sure enough other team ends up being 90-95% likely to win. You'd think it would try to make it as close to 50% (overall Elo calculated with our current matchmaking) win/loss as possible? It must go off of your weekly stats and not overall maybe??

I don't know anything about a game deliberately trying to sway matches to even out KDs, but the natural progression of true SBMM would tighten global KDs closer to 1.0 (with outliers, obviously).

No I don't think you get it, not all skill levels play each other, it's still only like a slight elo difference each match it's still gets close to each elo, go to guardian. Gg and check your past games it's only like 1000 elo difference 90% of the time

I do get it, what we're describing is two entirely different things. SBMM separates players based on their skill levels, but what Destiny is doing is balancing teams to give both sides an even chance of winning, it does this by doing exactly what OP describes, by putting top-tier players with plebs and pairing that team with a team the games think they'll have an equal chance of beating, in this case, three above average players. That means that the two low level players are outmatched by the enemy and even their own team mate. SBMM tries to avoid that. These are two different systems.

But it's only a 1000 elo difference, which isn't much, it still puts you in a bracket!!!!! You have a 1100 elo you will never play someone that's 1400 or above and trust me I looked at your history you never played anyone that high or higher, your a in the bracket around other 1100 or 1200 elo people. And the elo goes to over 2000 elo so 1000 elo difference each match is not much difference so hence its still sbmm cause your in that BRACKET!!!!!!!!!

I have an incredibly average Elo, any bell curve would show you that there's more to match, the difference comes at the edges of the bell where high level players need low level players to even out their team. Checking my stats, it will appear that the matches are near perfect, but checking the stats of the top tier players, you'll see that a 2000 Elo player is matched with players of 900-1100 on their team and the opposing team are comfortably in the 1300's. The objective of the matchmaking is to bring the predicted win rate to 50/50%

Ok so that still doesn't negate the fact that 90% of the time your in a game with people close to your bracket but there are variables like fire teams gets tricky, but like I said it's still puts you around certain Elos, in 6v6 I promise you at least 8-10 will be close to your elo so how am I wrong with facts?