Stay with me here... I'm going deep
Year 1: the coop players dream
Think about the concept of a Raid Sherpa... Advanced community members taking casual players through very difficult content(hardcore raiders take this for granted), teaching them, guiding them. Now put that together with the complete randomness and lack of raid matchmaking... This is how communities form that last, how clans are made, and how friendships can be forged between people who may never have met each other in real life, (sometimes across the globe).
Through the glitches, terrible drop rates, and generally limited mechanics, the aforementioned social aspects of Destiny are wonderful, for those who choose to take part. Now, let's contrast that with a broken, laggy, aggressive, overly competitive, imbalanced crucible experience. It's two different worlds really, with a completely different mentality, when community is concerned.
Fast Foreword to year 2: a different vision
Many people in this community feel that the oppressive matchmaking for solo/small groups is punishing. This intentional punishment is designed to force players into a similar "clan based" experience in the crucible, as its coop/raid counterpart. This relates specifically to having to create a stacked team. Essentially players need to draw from a completely different pool of players than their normal raid groups and clans to be successful, subsequently forming new bonds.
This theory is supported by several key factors that I will detail below:
1. The previously mentioned punishment that solo players of high skill endure via the new SBMM.
2. The changes to Trials of Osiris MM that prioritizes sweaty, punch card positions that ultimately favor seeking out Carries from highly skilled players(as opposed to year one, where you could form a team of friends and go flawless). Think of it as the creation of the "PVP Sherpa".
3. PVP quest lines that relate and yield specific gear beneficial to cooperative aspects of the game.
4. Iron Banner being used as a metric for player enjoyment related to success in forming teams for crucible gameplay as well as rewards relating to success in said game mode.
The problem:
In year one, Bungie, A company whose Pedegree produced revolutionary multiplayer for consoles, was observing abysmally low player counts in PVP(I believe that at one point, was only 2% of the population). While on paper, Im sure it sounded great to employ the same tactics used to keep players in the virtual hamster wheel of endless, repetitive content via promotion of social aspects(that earlier stated, proved to be very positive). Unfortunately, forcing two different types of players(which I will detail below), with two different types of mentality, into one arena has proved to be problematic for everyone. Many Destiny players fit into two distinct camps, with two distinct gameplay experiences that both grow, and augment attitude and style of play. However, there is a 3rd type of player that makes up the majority.
1. The coop player/raider:
This type of player has been conditioned through gameplay to find cooperative solutions to problems in gameplay by working together with other teammates. Success can be found by efficient tactics and subsequent rewards are the result, as well as a buffer for future attempts/endeavors(in simple terms the player received awards that are designed to make the content easier on the next attempt).
2. The PVP enthusiast:
This type of player has been conditioned through gameplay(in the majority crucible experience) to ruthlessly destroy his/her opponents by any means necessary. The PVP experience encompasses everything from baiting teammates, to exploiting broken, imbalanced weapons and tactics, to more extreme measures such as cheating(via manipulating ones connection; IE red bar gods). Success is found by eliminating ones opponent with little to no regard for their experience, yielding higher stats used in recruitment and acceptance in end game modes such as Trials. Weapons obtained(such as Doctrine of Passing), while limited in number, provide clear advantages for those who obtain them.
3. The majority of the Destiny community:
The majority of the Destiny community takes part in both sides of this binary dichotomy. This type of player understands that both aspects of the game(PVP/PVE)are completely different and require a different mentality. Success in all modes is defined by the players ability to adapt to changing conditions, both internally and externally via changes in the "ever changing game meta".
Expanding on the problem: two worlds collide(and the people caught in the middle).
Events such as trials of Osiris and iron banner promote the idea that level advantages are enabled. On the other hand, It's no secret that higher light levels are gained by taking part in cooperative events such as Raids or prison/challenge of elders. This fact alone, automatically sets the two previously mentioned, binary sides of the Destiny community on collision course with the average Destiny player caught in the middle. This unfortunate collision has created several problems plaguing the Destiny community:
1. Balance changes designed to curb overuse of weapons that over perform in PVP that provided fun, non-game breaking gameplay in PVE.
2. Insane, artificial skill gap predicated on choice of mode and time spent(coop vs PVP). For a game with non competitive elements such a "free kill" supers and OHK specials, Destiny seems to have a higher skill gap than most other shooters.
3. Cross pollinated PVP/PVE rewards that favor or punish the same mentality born from gameplay experiences previously mentioned(see section heading "The Problem").
4. The Sniper Meta. Hard core PVP players, who refuse to raid, needed something to close the gap on a dwindling PVP community due to lag and balance issues. Sniper Rifles, the legendary skilled based weapons in year two ignore light level restrictions. I believe the decision to leave snipers alone, when every other weapon's time to kill was increased, in the name of balance, was to give PVP players(especially streamers and pro players, the tools to dominate without raiding).
5. Oppressive matchmaking that is designed to shield new/casual players from the wrath of PVP pros.
These problems create a complete mess for the average Destiny player. He/she suffers through Raids where players are five months in who play only PVP and have no idea beat the first boss(because the light level cap was lower for end game PVP), and is completely punished for trying to solo que in PVP, due to being put on a team full of people who are simply trying to complete quests(and have little to no interest in competitive play or don't have experience).
The solution: how to make PVP enjoyable moving forward
Often times the solution is vastly more simple than the problem itself. Despite the long-winded nature of the problem itself I will be brief and explaining how to create a better experience for the majority player.
1. A clear vision for both modes must be determined before the launch of Destiny 2. If the PVP game is going to be imbalanced due to sharing elements with PVE, then it should remain that way throughout its lifecycle.
2. In the event that competitive balance is desired in Destiny 2, both PVP AND PVE need to be completely separated.
3. Weapons in multiplayer should have a top end damage and range variable that fits within their intended role in combat.
3. Some form of casual, large-scale multiplayer mode, involving neutral enemies needs to be added to bridge the gap between hard-core, arena based multiplayer and cooperative gameplay(see TITANFALL). Perhaps some kind of world PVP could be implemented.
4. Multiplayer balance, concerning the role of each class and subclass should mirror how each class works in every mode. Example: the Titan class should function as its description reads in both PVP and cooperative events.
5. Trials of Osiris and any similar mode added in the future should never alienate The majority of the player population. Rampant cheating and pay to win carries are against BUNGIE'S OWN mandated terms of service.
6. Dedicated servers will prevent host advantage, cut down on latency issues, provide a more consistent experience and give back to a community who has supported you for years.
7. This issue may be solved by the previous solutions... However I feel I must state it. Completely cease the ridiculous seasonal meta changes that render certain weapons useless and other weapons dominant. This is a cheap tactic used to cover up for the fact that both, your vision was not clear, as well as the technical difficulties associated with creating a balanced game where all play styles and weapons are valued.
If you read all of what I had to say, I sincerely appreciate it. I think there are a lot of people who can relate to what I have to say and know it to be true.
Summary/TLDR:
SBMM is punishing solo players as well as small groups. This I believe, is an effort to promote social bonds similar to Raid groups, meaning you need to reach out to better players and interact with the PVP community(think trials carries). The problem is, the two binary sides of the community, PVP and PVE players have been conditioned by vastly different gameplay experiences. The negative result of this merger has been: weapon changes in PVP that harm gameplay, SBMM That has created lag in effort to curb pub stomping, and cheating. Looking forward to Destiny two some solutions would be: dedicated servers, ranked playlists, clear vision for weapon balance, and an end to seasonal meta changes that ruin certain weapons while overpowering others.
TLDR for my TLDR LOL!!!!!
SBMM is forcing two binary sides of the community to interact, producing negative consequences?
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3 RespuestasWhile I agree with basically every aspect of what you said; I'm worried that the vocabulary used and the general structure of your argument may alienate a large number of members of this community. With the rampant cries of "git gud" and the incredibly low understanding of the distinction between: there, they're, and their; this community is not in a position to listen to you. I'm hopeful that someone from Bungie may see your post and understand the incredibly well thought out argument that it holds. However, it's doubtful that will happen and more than likely you will get only hate and "tldr" from this community.
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1 RespuestaSo I actually took the time to read this all. I agree with you. And like you said Destiny 2 needs this or this. You never said change Destin 1 to this. I think we know we can't change what we are playing right now to be fixed. Maybe the seasonal meta was cheap, but I like it. Playing with different guns is fun. If I were still using Thorn the way it was then I'd be bored. Also if I then tried to use a different gun but I couldn't because the gun was week it would be no fun. I feel like I'm on the pvp end of things. I don't want to do a raid unless it's to help a friend. Yes I like to use snipers but only because I have to, to compete. I want some connection between pve and pvp. But not sure how to have thing. Hope the bungie minds are at work coming up with a way to make destiny 2 epic and not a epic failure.
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1 RespuestaI guess solo players get the short end of the stick, like always.
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1 RespuestaTldr. Bump for later
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19 RespuestasNo. Competition and cooperation are two-sides of human nature that we all possess. The issue with the game is that PVE players and PVP players want very different things from a gaime like this. PVE players want power. PVP players want balance. ...and Bungie's insistence that Pvp and PVE share the same weapon systems (and PVE players are largely forced to live with all manner of nerfs in order to satisfy PvP players wish for balance) is what puts the community at odds with one another. Not SBMM. The only people complaining about SBMM are those outliers who wind up with bad connections because the pool of acceptable matches for them is too small.....and elite players who are pissed off because they having to play people of their own level, and not pubstomping weaker players. So their KDs are going down.
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1 RespuestaI laughed cuz I read it like this Destiny pvp: the problem...the players Ma bad
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Pvp has turned into what it us right now: at a much slower pace too, in order to accommodate the bad players who can't learn or are too slow. Not every player exploits cheating, glitches, or what u claim are cheap kills or guns. Majority know they have good reaction times, aim, and can chain a multitude if factors in a single engagement which is why destiny is still played. From a bad players perspective it looks like they're trying hard because it would take them much much greater effort to accomplish the same. It's a noobs way of thinking. To them crazy fast paced accuracy to kill multiple players is hacking or impossible because they're judging those actions to their own capability. Not all are equal and u can tell by the way they speak on here and play A majority of players love a challenge and want to test theirselves in pvp. U can use the same gun and abilities but with this many factors involved, no engagement is ever the same and comes strictly down to players. A noob vs a decent player using the same loadouts still holds true. If we wanted less factors with zero variability at a slower pace with huge targets we'd be in pve. Diff mindsets and interests; don't assume they're the same The lag comp bs is bungies fault completely so don't generalize all pvp players when theres a clear difference. -laggy idiots do have great advantages. There is no -blam!-ing good reason to play against brazilians with net as good as the cheapest wifi Sbmm isn't bad in itself, bungies testing team is just extremely clueless. To them heavy kills are skilled and having counters isn't a must for balance, but popular weapons are. Look through the forums. Good players ask for counters and balance. Noobs ask for nerfs and ways to compromise good players because they think theyll actually be relevant.
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4 RespuestasThe problem: it was never designed to be a balanced arena shooter like Halo. Solution: get rid of it.
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7 RespuestasPVP was definitely far more fun and way less rage inducing in year one. I've still never gone flawless in trials because I'm not going to pay to have someone carry me through something. That is bs. But every time I try to go flawless I get to around 7-8 wins and face multiple teams using the most boring stupid meta weapons, that, if you don't use exactly what they use and aren't quite quick enough to pull the trigger, you loose the match. Also the current sbmm is complete bs. Last night I played some doubles solo. Apparently that is the worst thing you can do because every time I went against two people in a fireteam and guess what the random I get is below 300 light. I played 10 matches (leaving current matchmaking each time) and I get paired up the same way. Two 335s in a fireteam and I get some random using blue and green gear at a whopping 270 light lvl. Also my current PVP k/dr is around a 1.0 to 1.10 so something is very wrong with sbmm.
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3 RespuestasThe problem: PvP is ruining the community and the game. The solution: Remove PvP from Destiny.
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2 RespuestasEditado por Doc Walker: 7/14/2016 6:21:13 PMGood stuff my man. PvP and Pve being separated would be great! The only thing I would want, would to be able to bring your gear earned in either aspect to the game mode of your choosing. That is what makes destiny so great. Separate the buffs, nerfs to each game type so all gear can be enjoyed. If I had to choose a stale PvP loadout every time I would get bored and play another game
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1 RespuestaI still maintain that crucible should be divided between a ranked Playlist (where performance = rewards) and a unranked Playlist (go in to have fun, rewards given out randomly). The ranked would be mostly objective based where you are given a load out at the start, where the load out is universal for both teams (think halo BUNGIE). The unranked would be very similar to the current crucible with larger maps and using your weapons from PvE and PvP alike. Weapon balance in the crucible would be based around ranked Playlist weapons. PvE would, like you said, be it's own thing with its own balances. Most of what you said I agree with, though likely wouldn't be until D2. Even then the likely hood of dedicated servers isn't that great cause of Activision. Still, here's to hoping. Maybe the D2 delay will pay off.
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1 Respuestahttps://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/208938314/0/0 Sniper thread too Nice post
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1 RespuestaPVP is the problem. Luke Smith is the solution.
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3 RespuestasEditado por bobswerski: 7/14/2016 1:50:55 PMSome good points but your logic is a little circular, tbh. While there are other things I take issue with, (don't even get me started on the myth of "the war on PvE", that's arguably the biggest false narrative in this history of this forum) I'm gonna keep it short and just point out that one really major flaw in your reasoning is that outside of Trials (which I do agree with you about, btw)[b], PvP is [u]far[/u] less punishing to new/casual players in Y2 compared to Y1.[/b] That's probably for a multitude of reasons, I think the skill gap isn't that massive and has shrunk, if anything, and SBMM has almost certainly helped the casual player more than it has hurt them. I don't know how much PvP you played in Y1 but in HoW in particular there were a lot more roflstomps with 1-2 people routinely dominating the game, sometimes with 40 kills. You just don't see that very often anymore, most games in the middle tier where I get matched (afaik most people have a k/d in the 0.8-1.3 range) are quite close and it's rare for anyone to have a kill count above 25 or so. Don't get me wrong, there are downsides to SBMM as well, but it's not the only or even major reason for the conflict between the PvP and PvE crowds and unquestionably has not made the experience worse for the player who only occasionally plays PvP.
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1 RespuestaIt's -blam!-ed. Red bar -blam!-s all over the -blam!-in place. -blam!- you mother -blam!-ers. Fix it.
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3 RespuestasGaurdian.gg has a very nice feature where you can look at the scorecard of a previous game and at the top of the scorecard it gives each team's average ELO and their respective odds of winning. Control is where the recent matchmaking changes have been implemented, so it's the game mode that I looked at, also it's probably my most common mode so I notice changes more. I've been anecdotally noticing more thrashings. If I look at the stats, a few weeks ago many many matches were 50:50 or 49:51. basically you were lucky if the ELO gap between the teams weighted the match more than 5% in one direction. If I look at recent stats, I am seeing gaps, regularly, of 10% plus, even 20%. A 38:62 match is NOT SBMM in the slightest. Especially not when the opposition loses by more than 10000 points. TL;DR From [b]my[/b] stats I am satisfied therefore that the skill component is definitely reducing.
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1 RespuestaThank you , very well written and made me think, which is very rare in here. I also respect that there were no insults or attacking in your post. I'm am not a very good pvp player and do not play it much, but I like that it is available , to have more to do and has a different experience to it. Your post allowed me to think of the issues that have been difficult to weigh do to a majority of post being presented so one sided there is always just argument and name calling. Also many post are made in anger and are loaded with obvious bias. And I just have to wonder why bunjie seems so against ranked play list , what are the negatives? Is it some programming thing? I don't see how it would effect those that don't play it. I love the game and enjoy it every time I play, do I play less now yes but it's still a net positive. So to me it's really just a few changes away from being really great! The people that go it's AIDS or cancer I don't quite get, I don't even try to play games I feel that way about, or care at all about their forums etc I just play something else.
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1 RespuestaNah its been sh*t for over a year now, what makes you think they care to fix it all of a sudden!?., making it worst maybe but fixing it i doubt it honestly; at least not under the leadership of self entitled employees like derek carrol
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1 RespuestaTLDR: Fix servitors
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1 RespuestaIt makes perfect sense to change things back to the way they were. But bungie won't do that, they remove all the fun after all
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1 RespuestaA lot here, but pieces i read make great sense. Especially the Trials comments. Bump!
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1 RespuestaHmmmmm. Some good points. Thought occurred to me :" do you think they purposely held back PVE content to push players toward pvp?" That's what happened to me. Not sure about cod influx... If they implement custom games and I start getting " 1v1 me " msgs then I will be more convinced. Lmao
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6 Respuestasi wish all pvp were removed from destiny. #PVEplayersmatter #titanmasterrace
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1 RespuestaThere's a problem?
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