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6/21/2008 6:46:46 AM
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Halo 3's sandbox of weapons - the fatal flaw?
Please, consider the following quote:
[quote][b]Posted by John Howard, Halo 1 lead designer:[/b]
[22:08] [JohnHoward:] The Halo 1 pistol wasn't a mistake...
[22:08] [JohnHoward:] It was also intended to be the ultimate hold out weapon...
[22:09] [JohnHoward:] I always believe that balance is about giving each weapon / ability / whatever it's own perfect situation.[/quote](Taken from Shadowrun Launch Party IRC Chat)
This quote doesn't relate to Halo 3. Why can't the starting weapon be used as an all-around tool at all ranges, while all other weapons do their specific jobs better compared to that one base weapon? This inherently balances the game and gives each and every weapon a unique and distinct purpose.
Even if changing this means H3 has too many weapons to the point where some weapons are clones of each other (it's like that anyway, so it wouldn't create a new problem), it still creates an environment where you spawn with something that feels powerful, reliable and fun to use without taking away from the effectiveness of all the other weapons. You can still appeal to the casual base that way without frustrating the fans and veteran players.
In my strong, yet modest and thought out opinion, Halo 3's weapon sandbox design is flawed.
What are your thoughts on basing all of H3's weapons around a single weapon? Do you think that doing so makes the entire weapon sandbox more stable?
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i'm about half and half with what you said about the pistol. I think that it was by far the best starting weapon of the Halo trilogy but it wasn't the best weapon in Halo 1, if you had a decent sniper you could totally take out people with the pistol, same with rockets and a plasma rifle. But i think if you have some decent H1 players then the pistol is one of the most powerful weapons out there and almost over powering at times. I think that was they have done with H3 is horrible. they say the listen to the community more, but when i look at there updates and some one has a serious question or complaint then the just get "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" by bungie. they say they listen to the community but all they do is add play lists they really don't fix any problems in H3. I think after a game like H1 that H2 was a good game of its self, it kinda went on it own path more arcadish and faster paced but still held a halo core. H3 on the other hand is just bad, they completely changed the gameplay with the use of equipment, and seem to punish players for being good, you basicly have to be the biggest -blam!- on the planet to win. the way the have the leveling up in H3 almost makes it unfun to play because of how it basically kills your chances of going up when you have one bad game or one bad teammate. It also is so random that half the time it is just a guessing game of if your going to get your kill or be killed in the stupidest ways possible. H3 isn't anywhere close to the games that H1 and 2 were and that's a solid fact.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BeloAvrgJoe I have seen those lines quoted before with additional lines, maybe another 2 lines from John Howard. Where can a more complete transcript of that chat be obtained?[/quote]The other lines you saw were most likely me asking the question. It all used to be at Shadowrun.com, but the site's down now. I honestly don't know where to find it now...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel Please, consider the following quote: [quote][b]Posted by John Howard, Halo 1 lead designer:[/b] [22:08] [JohnHoward:] The Halo 1 pistol wasn't a mistake... [22:08] [JohnHoward:] It was also intended to be the ultimate hold out weapon... [22:09] [JohnHoward:] I always believe that balance is about giving each weapon / ability / whatever it's own perfect situation.[/quote](Taken from Shadowrun Launch Party IRC Chat) This quote doesn't relate to Halo 3. Why can't the starting weapon be used as an all-around tool at all ranges, while all other weapons do their specific jobs better compared to that one base weapon? This inherently balances the game and gives each and every weapon a unique and distinct purpose. Even if changing this means H3 has too many weapons to the point where some weapons are clones of each other (it's like that anyway, so it wouldn't create a new problem), it still creates an environment where you spawn with something that feels powerful, reliable and fun to use without taking away from the effectiveness of all the other weapons. You can still appeal to the casual base that way without frustrating the fans and veteran players. In my strong, yet modest and thought out opinion, Halo 3's weapon sandbox design is flawed. What are your thoughts on basing all of H3's weapons around a single weapon? Do you think that doing so makes the entire weapon sandbox more stable?[/quote] I have seen those lines quoted before with additional lines, maybe another 2 lines from John Howard. Where can a more complete transcript of that chat be obtained?
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No opinions on this?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LoneStaruner [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel The Pistol isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me I still play H1 regularly. You can use the Pistol when you spawn, but every other weapon on the map beats the Pistol at its intended job.[/quote] Once again psitol can be all it the right hand, sure charging someone with a shotty isn't smart , rocket will moslty likley kill you sniper ha range, but the pistol in the right hands is as deadly as possible[/quote] Well, you can technically say the Sniper is the best weapon because it can 1-shot from anywhere and has a 30 second respawn time on most maps. Recent Halo CE montages like BONDtage and Chill Out Noobs 2 have mostly Sniper clips too. I still disagree about the Pistol being so great anyway. When people claim that they play using only the Pistol and win, I challenge them saying that they are either 1) lieing, or 2) beating horrible players. If you use the weapons I listed for the uses I paired them with, you'll have a stable advantage against a Pistol user, because EVERYTHING was stronger in Halo 1, not just the Pistol. Those distinct choices and counter-choices among all guns really added to Halo 1. Then of course there is timing weapons, controlling where your teammates (and sometimes enemies) respawn, a general consistency and stability among the rules of the game, and rewarding gameplay mechanics that make Halo 1 have great depth. You can always explore and improve your game further, and that's why I still play it. It's true game balance. But I don't want to get into all the other details. I know Bungie wants to cater to a casual fanbase, and that's okay because I understand the business reasons. But I don't see why Bungie can't please the veteran players too by just sticking to Halo's core gameplay style. Like it or not, people like using reliable weapons and they don't like to be stuck with something crappy.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel The Pistol isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me I still play H1 regularly. You can use the Pistol when you spawn, but every other weapon on the map beats the Pistol at its intended job.[/quote] Once again psitol can be all it the right hand, sure charging someone with a shotty isn't smart , rocket will moslty likley kill you sniper ha range, but the pistol in the right hands is as deadly as possible
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And if the battle rifle is so bad then why is it most player's TOD by usually about 10% over the next weapon?
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the fatal flaw being the br in br start games- quickly turns the game into nothing but a br fest as no-one uses anything else, personally I refuse to use the dam thing and throw it away first chance I get
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The AR is pretty damn reliable in a pinch. JUst cuz you cant shoot a sniper halfway across the map with it doesnt mean its bad.
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exactly. it's not like the battle rifle makes other weapons obsolete... Carbine is a preference choice Shotgun, Sword, Hammer, Mauler, and at a stretch Plasma/Assault Rifle/SMG win short range Sniper, Beam Rifle, Laser wins long range Rockets win mid range, but have limited ammo Needler wins mid range, but is unwieldy That leaves a grand total of around 5 other weapons.... any of the above make great secondary choices. And even those still have their uses. Give the BR starts a chance again. Try looking for some of the above weapons instead.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel In my strong, yet modest and thought out opinion, Halo 3's weapon sandbox design is flawed. What are your thoughts on basing all of H3's weapons around a single weapon? Do you think that doing so makes the entire weapon sandbox more stable?[/quote] How is there sandbox failed???? BR is the ultimate support weapon to go with anything like wise withe the Carbine. You're just saying this, you have no idea how to make a game so you can't call anything flawed.
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The Battle Rifle is [i]still[/i] a great all around weapon and (like the pistol in Halo: Combat Evolved) is usually only trumped by weapons that are meant for that intended scenario.
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People stop complaining and enjoy the game. Please don't complain just because the game wasn't made [i]your[/i] way.
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The Pistol isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me I still play H1 regularly. You can use the Pistol when you spawn, but every other weapon on the map beats the Pistol at its intended job. To keep it simple, vs Pistol: *Shotty and AR beat it at close range. *PP and PR are better for flanking / teamshooting and vs OS. *Sniper beats it at long range. *Rocket is the game's power weapon. *Pistol isn't useful against OS. *No quick-camo with Pistol, so you drop your Pistol and keep AR for camo+snipe or camo+rockets. *Pistol is always best at mid-range *Needler is... lol. And for the heck of it: *Grenades are anti-camp, Pistol isn't. *Pistol has slow melee, AR is better for double melees. So going back to my original point, the Pistol was useful all-around, but everything beats the Pistol at it's intended job. Because of that, you need to pick your weapons intelligently and know when and how to use them. Another thing to note is that EVERYTHING except for the needler is more powerful in Halo 1 than it is in 2 and 3 (except the PP in Halo 2). Yes, the Pistol was a 3sk , but don't forget that everything else was lethal back then too. Also don't forget that a 3sk was actually uncommon because of it's difficulty to execute. Watch pro gameplays. 3sk's were a rarity and always exciting to see because they didn't happen often.
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[quote]John Howard can't be trusted. Anyone that doesn't agree that the Halo 1 pistol wasn't broken is wrong. Wrong on so many levels it makes me shiver.[/quote] I agree. that and the plasma pistol were the only weapons you needed for complete ownage on any campaign difficulty or multiplayer map. You shouldn't be able to kill snipers with a pistol at long range.
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Its all relative to the map. When you spawn, the first thing you do is go and find a better weapon. The AR, while not as pathetic as the H2 smg, is still weak enough that you would prefer another weapon. Basically, you spawn, you find cover, and then look for a new weapon. The gamer adapts to the game: You figure out the best routes for objective games, you learn to cope with campers. So, logically speaking, shouldn't the gamers adapt to the AR spawn, rather than immediately charging out and being killed again and again and again? The AR spawn is both a blessing and a curse: It adds a new element to the game play, but at the same time it changes what we new from the H:CE pistol
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John Howard can't be trusted. Anyone that doesn't agree that the Halo 1 pistol wasn't broken is wrong. Wrong on so many levels it makes me shiver.
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what i think is all you really need is the battle rifle but i still think sandtrap is to big for effective battle rifle usage
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ryce the pwner Are you upset that Bungie officially sent out a suggestion that you pick up something other than the BR? [/quote]To be honest, I don't like how an important gameplay element from the first two games wasn't included in the third one and it turned out for the worst. I figured I'd post it now since people are fired up about the BR update. Care to comment on the topic though? =)[/quote] In my opinion, Halo isn't the sort of game where difficult competition comes from aiming better than the other opponent, or even using certain weapons better than other people. Too little dependence is placed on shot placement (ie: Headshots do the same damage until the shields are down). Halo's gameplay is more like a situational first person game than a first person shooter. If you have a needler and have the minimal capability to aim at a large slowly moving target, you can kill them. However if they also have a needler, no matter how much better they are reflex-wise the battle will still become a stalemate. However, if one player can more amply use grenades, use equipment, or use melee quicker than the other player, they will win. In this regard, Halo isn't the first to implement such mechanics into their sandbox, it is however one of the first shooters to rely so heavily on knowing how to use such things quickly rather than out aiming your opponent. So no, I loved Halo CE's pistol, but I like the developments that have been made, and if you like the "one weapon to rule them all" gameplay, play MLG. I'm not just throwing at a suggested gametype, I'm also a fan of MLG for it's certain nuances and it captures "old-school" Halo better than Halo 3 originally does.
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i agree with the quote. the quote makes sense to me
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You can talk about it all you want, but no changes will be made in Halo 3. This is why Bungie made the Assault Rifle. They thought it would be that versatile starting weapon. Has it turned out to be? I don't really agree there. Pretty much every other weapon destroys it unless that AR is within 10-15 feet of the target. Bungie's sandbox idea is a good one, but I do agree, that it doesn't work out the way they intended. Basically, the BR still owns every other weapon in this game. That's factual, if you look at service records, 95% of them will have the BR as their main killing weapon. And, in general, H3's maps are vastly larger than H2's, so I don't think the AR fits well, at all, as a starting spawn weapon. [Edited on 06.20.2008 11:58 PM PDT]
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Isn't the battle rifle already like that? A well rounded weapon. It may not be as powerful as the Halo 2 battle rifle or the Halo 1 pistol, but it's still a well rounded, effective weapon. It's just that now, in Halo 3 you wont suffer immediatly for putting it down. The majority of player still favor the weapon, everyones just whining because you can't kill snipers at long range with it... [Edited on 06.20.2008 11:51 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tyyan BR will win against AR at long distances, mainly, spawns that is why the AR is the default spawn (so the other team can't spawn kill) that is effective until someone picks up a BR and finds the other teams spawn[/quote]That doesn't make sense... The H2 SMG sucked because it was so easy to be spawn killed with it. H3 has larger maps than H2, so the same problem exists with H3 AR spawns by your logic.[/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel You can burst fire the AR for better affects at medium range. Sadly, the AR is not an all around gun when it comes to far range. The BR and sniper rifle fill that role better. Bungie thought long and hard about this design choice, and while it strays from the flawed mechanics found with Halo CE's mighty pistol. I cannot help but like the new sandbox balance. I actually find myself using more than just my BR(like in Halo 2) or my Pistol(like in Halo CE). I use all the weapons in the sandbox, and pick them out based on my play style during that tactical moment.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tyyan BR will win against AR at long distances, mainly, spawns that is why the AR is the default spawn (so the other team can't spawn kill) that is effective until someone picks up a BR and finds the other teams spawn[/quote]That doesn't make sense... The H2 SMG sucked because it was so easy to be spawn killed with it. H3 has larger maps than H2, so the same problem exists with H3 AR spawns by your logic.
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BR will win against AR at long distances, mainly, spawns that is why the AR is the default spawn (so the other team can't spawn kill) that is effective until someone picks up a BR and finds the other teams spawn [Edited on 06.20.2008 11:06 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BluVirus121 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitzel Why can't the starting weapon be used as an all-around tool at all ranges, while all other weapons do their specific jobs better compared to that one base weapon? This inherently balances the game and gives each and every weapon a unique and distinct purpose.[/quote]Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that Bungie's intention of the Assault Rifle? The 'Perfect Spawn Weapon?'[/quote]That's their intention, but it can't be used effectively all-around. As of now, everything dominates the AR at their specific jobs, but the AR isn't at all reliable all-around.
