If having a 3 round burst is so problematic with the BR for the net code to handle (90% of the time all of the BR bullets don't register), why not make the BR a single fire weapon, ala. like the Halo 1 pistol, with the same fire rate as the Halo 1 pistol, but having it a 4 shot kill? That would make many a competitive player happy.

Firstly, to lighten the mood, feel free to watch this video, its a guaranteed laugh and is relevant to the issue at bar. [url]http://gameroom.mlgpro.com/view/awC5cUtgbOc.html[/url] [b]As a side note for all readers, i am not just a random Halo 3 player, I am very skilled and have placed well in both Live MLG tournaments and Online MLG Tournaments and have made almost 3000 dollars on Halo 3. I have a 50 in TS, TD, MLG, and LW. Just to verify that i am good at this game and im not just some kid who's frustrated because their aim sucks and they lose BR fights all the time. Now to the nitty gritty.[/b] The majority of the supporters for the tightening of a BR spread are those of competitive Halo players that feel the spread only hurts competition, and adds a random factor to the mix, I happen to be in this group. "And randomness is a poor substitute for tactics and skillful execution." Quoted by Halo 3's Multiplayer Lead Tyson Green Majority of the supporters for keeping the BR the way it is are those of the general/casual players that prefer if the BR stayed the same for fear that the BR would become all powerful and would ruin the game by making the rest of the weapons useless in a sense. Both sides have valid arguments but i would like to delve a little deeper into this, especially with the information released in Bungie's 6/20/08 update. With the latest update, Bungie further expressed that the BR functions as intended, and that the spread acts the way it does to serve out two reasons. One, realism, making the weapon act in a way that is more realistic as to how bullets travel, and two, to prevent creating a "universal" weapon.. or a weapon that everyone will prefer to use.. thus eliminating the use of other weapons ( spiker, needler, plasma rifle, etc... ). First id like to address the realism issue. I feel that this should not be brought into the decision of how the BR acts simply because there is no point in arguing about realism in a game that takes place in a completely unrealistic world, especially if that could impair ones ability to enjoy the game. The target of a game should not be to make us think its real.. but to allow the player to enjoy themselves, the two often contradict each other in certain cases. I for one was a Socom player while Halo 1 and Halo 2 were out and something very similar happened with this group of games as well. Socom 1 and 2 were thought of as amazing games, the bullets hit where your crosshairs aimed for the most part, and individual skill was huge, but even the most casual player could enjoy playing it by just picking up an f90 and spraying 60 bullets at a guy or grabbing a grenade launcher... but when Socom 3 came out they added a bullet spread to almost every weapon, trying to increase the realism and in the process almost completely ruined the franchise in a competitive sense (I took part in the gamebattles ladder for this game for multiple years and was considered Top 10 best Leaders/Gunners/Snipers towards the end so believe me when i say this). The only thing that was really fun and took skill to do anymore was quick sniping and jump sniping, which they eventually patched about 2 years after the games release due to the fact that jumping and sniping wasn't realistic. GTA 4 is another prime example, its filled with things that make the game realistic but it also makes sure to keep the player entertained. I mean, you cant go around running people over whenever you want in real life, and you cant just drive 5 blocks and suddenly the cops no longer chase you. You also would be dead if you got shot 6 times.. But come on lets face it, GTA would suck if that was the case. Secondly, "there is no designed one-weapon-to-rule-them-all in Halo 3 and that is a decision made by design to encourage all of the aspects of the sandbox to be used in gameplay. The bullet variation in the Battle Rifle’s three-round bursts is a design choice that further defines the weapon's role in the Halo 3 sandbox." i feel this idea is slightly flawed. If we take a look at a game like Rainbow Six Vegas, it has a massive amount of weapons a player can choose, but the universal weapon for almost all competitive players is the FAMAS, it is an extremely accurate weapon if used right, but that does not stop many of the casual players from using other weapons. In most matchmaking games i play in Halo 3 the majority of players will prefer vetoing for BR starts, and in AR start games most players will pick up a Carbine/BR if given the chance. I very rarely see a person dual wielding, let alone using the spiker/plasma rifle/smg simply for the fact that the AR serves as the best close range weapon in most cases... but this doesn't stop those select few that prefer to dual wield or use those weapons, and i don't see how making the BR spread tighten would reduce the amount of usage of these other weapons. It is said that the distance between a person affects the BR spread, well i often hit a person every time close up with the BR with every bullet registering and i still lose the fight because the AR/Melee combo just kills faster. Even if the BR spread were tightened i would still switch to my AR when a close up fight is going to emerge. And finally, i read the Math Class section in the latest update, and though some of it was hard to understand, it was easy for me to retain this statement "The Chief’s helmet is approximately 0.094 world units wide, [b]so if the shields pop, that bullet – aimed and fired accurately – under reasonable network conditions yields a kill.[/b]" I for one could show multiple examples of a player taking 1, 2, 3, even 4 extra well placed bursts to the head when they are down sheilds on a green bar host, and I'm sure many other players could as well, especially with the addition of the Team Swat playlist. All I'm saying Bungie is that although your intentions for the BR are good.. the reality is your causing frustration to a lot of people (Mostly those of the competitive community) and i feel a middle ground for all players could be reached. Im not saying make the BR a hitscan weapon or making it super uber godly and 4 shot people cross map, I'm just saying that the spread needs to be tightened so when in mid/close range BR fights the more consistent aim wins every time. So why not try it in your next update... i think the response towards a tightened spread would be unanimous but then again i cant speak for everyone.. I'm just voicing my opinion. Also, people stop saying that Halo 3 level means nothing, instead say, Halo 3 level doesn’t mean everything. Thanks for reading. [Edited on 06.25.2008 3:46 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xTRU3 SH0Tx I'm thinking cold storage is gonna be another uck fup that is way over textured and has a horrendous spawn system. Ayy Yo Bungie :)[/quote]Textures don't affect gameplay in any way, you're thinking of map geometry. [Edited on 06.25.2008 3:18 AM PDT]

I'm thinking cold storage is gonna be another uck fup that is way over textured and has a horrendous spawn system. Ayy Yo Bungie :)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos I should point out, that Dan wasn't slammed for his ideas, he was slammed for his freaking out over an accidental deletion of a thread that was getting locked. You'll notice that we did explain why things are the way they are and why they aren't going to change. Of course, a few of you probably don't like that. That's fine, you're welcome to discuss that. Even Dan. However, what isn't tolerated is the kind of temper tantrum that Dan had. Especially from someone who is generally a well regarded forum participant; if he expects to be taken seriously he can't lower himself to the status of a common troll. You guys need to understand that you cannot have it both ways. When you have such direct access to us as developers, you are going to occassionally hear answers you don't like. This is one of those times. It doesn't mean we "hate the competitive community", it means you think the game should be designed differently than it is ([url=/inside/jobs.aspx]jobs available![/url]). And that's great - we welcome such critical analysis. In the end, though, we have to go with what we think is the right call for every Halo 3 player, not just your corner of it, be it MLG, Big Team Battle, the BR or AR, the pistol, the big maps, the small maps, the CTF, and the straight Slayer guys. Of course, I know and you know the Internet doesn't work like that. Everybody thinks they speak for the majority, and that they're right and everyone else who disagrees with you is a total moron. So, all I ask for is a little civility and understand that maybe, just maybe, we have good reasons for the way we do things. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes, or that we're always right, or that you're always wrong, but I am saying that we aren't out to screw you, and you shouldn't always assume that. Okay? [i]...accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.[/i] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] telengard Wow, real cool to slam one of your loyal fans Bungie! I think the success has gone to your head. Do you guys think it's cool to single out and make fun of the people who buy and support your product? ~telengard[/quote][/quote] I understand. Your post makes sense.... I just feel like it was a little childish for Luke to call Dan out in a Weekly Update. I mean, was that really necessary? I Read the Weekly Updates for news on new maps and updates and such, not for forum drama... Oh, and Chill Out looks phenomenal, keep up the good work guys. [Edited on 06.24.2008 11:41 PM PDT]

The new map looks cool and all, and don't get me wrong..., but why Chill Out? I almost forgot about that map. But if Bungie picked it, I guess it's worth another shot.

Ok my first time posting somthing (i dont know how to post comments or what not so i just did a reply) i read the whole thing and i got most of it, but i just wanted to make one thing clear, is the BR more accurate or less accurate? ( thats the only thing i didnt understand). But over all the what ever you call them (i guess update) was G R E A T great. probably the most interesting, cause im thinking of gettitng into digital game design. new map look asome. oh and check out my fileshare thanks. p.s. who cares about RECON, 'cause i dont.( it looks ugly) i prefer Bungie to make full ODST (Orbital Drop Shock Troopers a.k.a. the Helljumpers) who raa ( dont know how to spell it) [Edited on 06.24.2008 11:47 PM PDT]

OMG! man god so much mathh ugh i love/hate how games are these days my god so much tactics no more point+shoot=dead games. o well this activates my frontal cortex for my advanced gifted classes=]

No more threads about the BR and folks are referred here for all discussion on that subject?!?!?! Hmmm, lets create a discussion forum, set rules and guidelines, encourage people to discuss our game, encourage people to voice feedback both good or bad, tout our forums and the ability to take negative criticism as a developer and studio strength and then go an decide we are no longer interested in what people have to say on a subject because it has blown up and become unmanageable. I can understand no recon threads but no BR threads? Oh well, we have no rights here and this isn't the first time this site has put a temp ban on certain topics but it just seems so 'because I said so' in a really 3rd grader kind of way. Too bad we all couldn't ban or prevent people from criticizing things we are tired of hearing about.

Oh come on I thought I was done with trig!!!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HAYABUSA REACON dos anyone know how to get reacon armor [/quote] Kiss Bungie's -blam!-. Stop asking, you get blacklisted for it then.

Yay! More Halo 1 remakes! Now, would you kindly do something about the hit boxes? My friends and I got into ranked games last night on Halo 3, and... after trying to kill a guy who withstood two full clips of sniper ammo (from me, anyways, all headshots), three grenades, and at least three clips of BR ammo... ALL to the head... we gave up.

dos anyone know how to get reacon armor

HOLY CRAP!!! Dude I can't wait for the new map. I especially want to see the new Forge objects for it. Show us MORE!!!! Finally another Flood-esque map!!! What are some other maps coming out? [Edited on 06.24.2008 1:14 PM PDT]

Is it possible for Bungie to make changes to the code (net code?) which is causing bullets to be dropped and subsequently returned. If yes, is it reasonable to do so? If fixed would it change the outcome of an attack? Is it possible for Bungie to return the BR to it's Halo 2 capabilities? If yes, is it reasonable to do so? I'm not asking for change since I don't believe it will affect my level of game play or enjoyment. Sometimes people just want to know if a thing can be changed. If it can't, they can move on to another discussion.

Did I get my facts straight on this thread that stosh locked? Ok, if you people actually read the entire Weekly Update you would Realize that there is a good reason for Bungie not taking your suggestions and changing back the BR. In Halo 2 the Battle Riffle Would beat out every weapon, because it is good at close range, medium range and long range. In halo 3 the design team wanted it to be fair, because it was realized in Halo 2 that it is too good. So for halo 3 they wanted things more balanced (in my opinion). So they Gave it less power at long and short range, making it the still the best medium range weapon (my opinion). [b][i]This is What I think you should do:[/i][/b] For all of the people that whining they probably want the Halo 2 BR back. And those people who are whining about wanting the Halo 2 BR had to get used to the Halo 2 BR by Playing Halo 2? And Halo 2 and Halo 3 are two Different Games within the same series. You if you are Whining 7bout the BR it is your fault for switching to a new game. If you want the halo 2 BR than play halo 2. It is that simple. And Different games are meant to be different, so they will have differences, the changes in the Battle Riffle are just one of the many changes between the games in the Halo Series. And like any other new game you start playing, you aren't going to be the best at it when you start, so you just have to play Halo 3 with the Battle Riffle at Medium Range the way it is meant to be used in HALO 3, not the way it was used in halo 2. Also like in any other new game you start to play, you have to play and practice to get good at it. The same thing goes for the BR. So just get used to it and practice with it at medium range the way it it said the be used at. [b]Shorter Version for the People that Still Don't Understand:[/b] The people whining got used to the halo 2 br when they played halo 2 so just get used to the halo 3 br now that you know how to use it. You guys are practically blaming Bungie for making a weapon in the game [i]you[/i] play. [b]Another Argument[/b] They people whining / complaining usually [i]claim[/i] to be MLG. If they are MLG they should be able to get a kill with almost any weapon nonetheless. So they should also be able to get a kill with the halo 3 BR. So you are just another poser if you claim to be MLG and are still whining about the halo 3 BR because you cant get a kill with it even though you [i]claim[/i] to be MLG. [b]Another Argument:[/b] Most of the people that also whine about wanting the Halo 2 BR back also say "Bungie Never Takes Suggestions?" Haven't anybody read the Code of Conduct : [i]You have no rights, Play nice.[/i] Theres one point of this. But Bungie actually does take suggestions such as. The melee glitch, Griffball Double Exp Weekends, Team Snipers Double Exp Weekends, Bungie.Net Avatars, Bungie.net User Skins, Bungie.net Themes. And many more things that Bungie gets from suggestions.. You guys are too busy wanting an "Ulimate Weapon". Think about that... Now that you know the facts behind the Halo 2 Br you know it is good at any range making it unbeatable. Think of Bungie's Point of View, Somebody is saying. "Can we have the Halo 2 Br back so we can an unbeatable weapon??" Think about it. Now don't tell me that it sounds a little stupid. And Yes They do take suggestions. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Timtaztix I don't want the BR to be accurate I want it to be consistent. Sometimes it shoots differently than an opponent's, and this makes luck a factor. Halo 3 should be about skill, not luck. Don't flame me until you've read everything. Bungie's excuse for not "fixing" the BR is that they don't want the BR to become the all-powerful Godly weapon that it was in Halo 2. The BR in Halo 2 was Godly because: -Button combos -Tight spread -The BR was a hitscan weapon -The BR was extremely consistent In Halo 3, there are no button combos, there is a huge spread, it is inconsistent, and it is not a hitscan weapon. Obviously, the BR is a lot less effective now than it was in Halo 2. Bungie apparently [i]thinks[/i] that we request the BR to be returned to its former state from Halo 2. No Bungie, not at all. You have misunderstood what the main problem is. [b][u]The BR is ridiculously inconsistent[/b][/u] Leave the spread as is, just take away the random tendencies! The problem is that [i]sometimes[/i] my BR has an accurate burst, and sometimes it has an inaccurate burst. What if I'm in a 1-on-1 BR fight, and my BR shoots randomly wider and his shoots randomly tighter. My opponent will win the fight not because of his aiming skills, but because his shot more accurately than mine. Even though my reticule was on his head, and his was on mine, I lose the fight because of the random tendencies. So, in conclusion, I suggest that Bungie removes the random tendencies of the BR's burst. This means that: -It will still have a wide spread -It will still [b]not[/b] be a hitscan weapon (You must still lead shots) -Still no button combos -Consistent! This is the only change...making the burst consistent. This way, the only advantage one player will have over another is skill. Luck should not be a factor in a competitive game. This way the BR is still not accurate enough to snipe, and not accurate enough to guarantee a perfect 4-shot every time...but it will remain this way for [i]everyone[/i] and not just the lucky will win. If everyone's BR performs the same, every time, even if the spread isn't perfect, it is a balanced weapon. Right now the winner of a BR fight depends on lucky spread, and I want the winner to rely on skill. Not luck. Post here if you agree with me, and be mature about it. No flaming unless you've read the entire post.[/quote] ^^^^^ Argument: In this statement the OP has all of the Halo 2 facts completely correct. But think about it, Yes, it is was completely consistent. And if that is what you are asking for in halo 3 then it would still be the Ultimate weapon. Think about it. What other weapon is completely consistent in Halo 3 Besides the Spartan Laser and Sniper Riffle (Said by Luke)? AR Bullets Fly everywhere. Needlers fly off anywhere, Rockets can be shot off by an explosion, Spikers don't lock on, Shotguns shoot multiple bullets. I really cannot think of another weapon that is completely consistent in hitting all of its shots. I also Think you may be exaggerating when you say ridiculously because if I am correct on my math and I read the many math equations correctly by JonnyOthan then only one one the 3 bullets is going to be inaccurate out of the three. You also talk about a 1 vs 1 BR duel. Think about this situation too. Once again if I am correct on reading the math equations then one out of the three bullets will [i]not[/i] hit. So if you think about that there is a 66.7% (Rounded) change that it will be accurate and a 34.3% chance that [i]one[/i] bullet out of the 3 will miss. That is not even a 50% chance! Which brings me to the Final facts of this argument that Only two weapons (that I'm 100% sure on) are 100% accurate. So why should the BR? This question brings us the Real Life Sniper vs the Real Life Battle Riffle. In Real life not every BR weapon is going to hit the exact target. A real life Sniper bullet will hit the exact target. So that equation is correct. So what is so what is so bad about a 34.3% chance of having 1 bullet miss when almost every other weapon will do the same or worse. The last thing in this argument, in a 1 on 1 br duel you will most likley to have the same outcome for both players. (I know I probably got some facts wrong in there but C'mon you gotta admit that is had to argue against!)

you freaked me out for a second, I just finished grade 11 math, and we did trigonometric functions...exponentials...sinusoidal...oh god...they haunt my dreams. I definitely enjoyed the update, I am ashamed to admit that tuesdays through thursdays are agonizing for me, since I come on Bnet everyday... So having good updates makes the week worthwhile. P.S. I WANT TO SEE SOME HUMPDAYS!

I remember Chill Out from Halo 1. I always liked that map Im sure Cold Storage will be cool.

First!

Dan91 was an idiot who got what he deserved, i dont care what the mlg rules say or how bungie broke them, because without halo, the mlg probably wouldnt be going on, considering most of the games they play have to do with halo, and besides, lets just drop the dan thing, he messed with luke, so luke had some fun with him ^^, i laughed.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DavidRE69 lukems and shishka are losers........ you broke the BR, i hate bungie. come out with an update that fixes it and i wont hate you as much.[/quote] Hate is a strong word. Do you really hate the people that made your favorite video game? But really bungie, you didn't have to do anything to the BR, it was just fine in halo 2.. I like how you toned down the auto aim in halo 3, but the BR should have stayed a hit scan weapon IMO.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos However, what isn't tolerated is the kind of temper tantrum that Dan had. Especially from someone who is generally a well regarded forum participant; if he expects to be taken seriously he can't lower himself to the status of a common troll. [/quote] Since when have B.Net admins been allowed to assume they have the power or authority to deem what is considered trolling on the MLG forums? Let it sink in a minute, if you will. Not only are you posting the whambulance article from a forum not your own, you assume he's the only one who wants the game to be as competitive as it can be, freak out about it. A somewhat ignorant claim, in my opinion. I agree that the change in the BR's technical aspects was proper to make it fit with the workings of Halo 3, and that it functions as it is intended. That doesn't mean I'm still not going to have multiple WTF moments when I watch my reticule rest near an elites neck, only to have the margin of error on my shots force the bullets everywhere except in his head. To see exactly what I mean by that, please view Real Men of Genius on the mlg gameroom. That's basically our opinion. Regardless of whether or not you view it as childish to argue about something that works as it should, or about something we have no control over, we're simply venting our frustration that what we once considered a virtually perfect weapon very much less useful. (Please don't use the argument that you see rants and uneducated posts, the community's view could easily be explained by any senior member in a non-demeaning manner, don't judge based on some person trying to make a scene.) Even if the Halo 2 Battle Rifle was far too lethal, as was the Halo: Combat Evolved pistol, a lot more people aware of competitive games and what makes them as such would consider them superior games. This is also why matchmaking was implemented, so average players wouldn't get destroyed by, oh, let's say Final Boss, in matchmaking. If the players are good enough to master a weapon to the extent that the H1 pistol and H2 BR were, it isn't like a secret lock, I'll use recon as an example, had to be turned. Anyone could get that good with the weapons, it wasn't like some deus ex machina figure stepped in to make our xbox's or halo discs different. Dan's frustration with seeing an entire thread deleted, albeit accidental, seems warranted considering his already high level of frustration with wanting a competitive weapon like the H2 BR, and being given a weapon with a degree of randomness that leads to many WTF moments. (Too many, in my opinion, even though I agree with the belief why this is the case)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos I should point out, that Dan wasn't slammed for his ideas, he was slammed for his freaking out over an accidental deletion of a thread that was getting locked. You'll notice that we did explain why things are the way they are and why they aren't going to change. Of course, a few of you probably don't like that. That's fine, you're welcome to discuss that. Even Dan. However, what isn't tolerated is the kind of temper tantrum that Dan had. Especially from someone who is generally a well regarded forum participant; if he expects to be taken seriously he can't lower himself to the status of a common troll. You guys need to understand that you cannot have it both ways. When you have such direct access to us as developers, you are going to occassionally hear answers you don't like. This is one of those times. Of course, I know and you know the Internet doesn't work like that. Everybody thinks they speak for the majority, and that they're right and everyone else who disagrees with you is a total moron. So, all I ask for is a little civility and understand that maybe, just maybe, we have good reasons for the way we do things. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes, or that we're always right, or that you're always wrong, but I am saying that we aren't out to screw you, and you shouldn't always assume that. Okay? [i]...accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.[/i][/quote] Achronos makes good points on the following: A: We sometimes get answers from the developers we don't like, and we have to accept. I personally have no opinion about the BR, but for example it was pointed in a thread I created that it wasn't possible to ban Elites in Team Swat because of the problems. It was not the answer I would of liked, but, hey they [i] did answer my question [/i]. Thats better than nothing. B. Going crazy like Dan did, and I'm guilty of it too at some points, does lower your credibility. C: Achronos admits they make mistakes. A change made in gameplay that may anger a MLG player but improves the gameplay for a Team Swat is unavoidable, but for a greater good. The only thing I ask for is accountability, and they do give us a lot of that. Things that are bungie controlled (I.E. playlists) should be open to discussion, and things we know are not Bungie controlled (I.E. Lag, DLC prices) should be labeled as such. I expect the company to do as much as possible, in financial and legal reason, to assist us players. I'll buy new maps sure, but don't force them on me for an example.

Cold Storage! Yesssssss! (said in a Napoleon Dynamite voice) I have no idea what other maps you guys are planning but I hope to see a blank slate type of map like Foundry but on a much larger scale.

cold storage looks awesome!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MrSiR8642 I see there making new maps. It would be pretty kool if bungie made a map from the very start where the 7 foot tall half ton guy aka spartan 117 masterchief came from.From what Ive read in books he came from a military camp raised for combat. It would be cool if they made a map off of that [/quote] That sounds pretty interesting. Going back to where it all began right?