EDIT#1: additions to theories
EDIT#2: major revisions for clarity
EDIT#3: major revisions for clarity, added TLDR section with summaries
[u]Problem[/u]:
I am convinced that the RNG system is actually bogus. There is no way every drop in the game is a one off chance for any given weapon or armor from the entire game. That's a lie, even for just class specific gear.
First and foremost random number generation is just a tool! There's no way loot is randomly generated or linearly scaled up in this game. I think there are pre determined rolls for high level drops made for each individual character which then roll against a specific loot table for a raid or nightfall which with a modifier based on skill which nerfs the roll for a leading player and buffs the roll for a losing player.
I don't think there is any way to justify that the loot system is purely random as it's been told to us to work.
[u]The Theories[/u]:
*** The RNG is just the tool to roll against one of the multiple loot tables which were created with specific sets of weapons, armor, upgrade materials, coins, and engrams. These handle the [u]end-of-mission rewards[/u] for each game like crucible, nightfall, and raids. Each mission type is assigned one of these loot tables.
*** I think there is growing observation to suggest that your character may have undergone a hidden roll at creation which determines an all-game drop [u]rate[/u] modifier and drop [u]type[/u] modifier.
-The drop rate modifier means you literally have a predetermined chance of getting more or less loot than the players around you.
-The drop type modifier would then determine an adjust drop rate for a selection of each type of weapon and armor. There must already be a modifier of this type so that we're getting class-specific drops 99% of the time already. This would be an extension of that same modifier which would boost to drop rates for a subset of each kind of exotic and legendary armors and weapons in the game. The meaning is that you are [b]designed to get only part of all the game's loot no matter how hard you try[/b] (it is possible, but statistically unlikely, without Xur, to fill in the gaps by just farming)
- This loot destiny is unique [i]just to this character[/i] and will be different for your other characters.[b] I think this accounts for why players often get repeat legendaries and exotics rather than the full collection of weapons and armor[/b], as well as widely different patterns of loot drops and frequency. get it? Destiny?
*** Remember, unique loot tables are assigned to each game mode and dialed in when you load the mode. There is likely one for vanguard level 24 strike vs ROC vs nightfall. You get the idea. You beat the mission and now you roll against this end-mission loot table with drop chances and types modified by your 'loot destiny' modifiers for that character.
*** A difficult aspect of drops to determine is whether or not there are skill based buffs or nerfs to your loot roll in crucible, nightfall, and raids. The community here continuously notes the disparity of end-mission exotics given to low level or lowest KD players in these game modes which suggests an 'equalization buff' of sorts to boost lower players at the expense of better players [i]by design[/i]. This also implies a roll NERF against the top players at end-mission when playing these modes. I don't think pure random numbers can account for the disparity and data needs to be collected and tested on this. Personally, I think the buffs exist for low KD players in all of these modes.
*** To try and balance this, Raid chests have their own drops based on the raid loot table with either a roll buff that [i]favors higher level players [/i] OR has an inherently higher predetermined exotic/legendary drop rate which is then modified by your loot destiny. This is an attempt at balance the low KD roll buff mentioned above. This way, the better raid players can get their valuable drops presumably with skill of playing the raid. [b]This is Destiny's attempt at Equalization[/b].
*** I think there must also be a unique bonus modifier for [u]enemy drops[/u] according to either player level or grimoire score. The average drop rate of any type of engram has been observed to increase steadily with increasing level. This only seems to apply to green/blue drops though. I cant tell with any certainty if purple drops are increased by level given their still high rarity outside of the special strikes. I have never seen or heard mention of a mob dropping an exotic engram.
*** Others have mentioned they feel there may be an 'age' modifier, similar if not the same one that I think exists for blue and green drops, to a character or username which makes legendary and exotics drop more for younger players and less for older and high level players. Seems harder to code than a loot modifier at character creation and I'm not convinced there's an effect on purple and yellow the way there is on green and blue.
*** I don't think there is any kind of modifier for shards or coins. I think these are pretty much handled by the higher level mission loot tables. Also, I think there is a set drop rate for ascendant materials in public events. Seems pretty clear. No difference according to level.
[b]*** TLDR START HERE ***[/b]
Putting it all together, this is how I think loot drops rolls are stacked against eachother:
1) ALL DROPS
- class specific modifier to select appropriate gear from RNG rolls against loot table
- loot table for each game mode you are playing is loaded at start of mission
- loot destiny modifier for drop rate always in play to determine overall rate of mob, end-mission, and chest drops
- loot destiny modifier for drop types always in play to determine subsets of each weapon/armor type you are most likely receive from all rarities for all drops from mob, end-mission, and chests from all loot tables
2) Mob drops
- all from #1 are in play
- level or grimoire based booster increases rate of blue/green drops with increasing experience
- minimal or no change to drop rate of legendaries apart from your loot destiny drop rate modifier
3) End-mission drops
- all from #1 are in play, notable for game mode specific loot table being used
- low KD roll buff is applied to increase chance for legendary or exotics in crucible, nightfall, and raid
- ?high KD roll nerf applied to decrease chance of same drops for top players in these modes
4) Raid Chests
- all from #1 in play, notable for a raid loot table being used for all mob, chest, and end-mission drops
- a boosted drop rate for purple/yellow is applied to each chest spawn
- ?experience or KD roll buff to purple/yellow drops to increase drops for best raid players
[u]Conclusions[/u]:
[b]I think Bungie instead has literally given you a 'loot destiny' and has a system of loot roll nerfs and buffs that are hidden and skill-based that are in place to try and 'equalize' the playing field[/b]. They also have a ridiculously low drop rate for high level gear against time played or enemies killed although there does seem to be a level based bonus to green and blue gear. The loot system at end-mission is tailored towards boosting low skill players and and actually nerfing higher level players. As a trade off, higher level players get a boosted chance for exotics in the raid chests.
If anyone else would like to add or modify this, I'm game. I think the system is far more complex and biased than they let on just calling this an RNG game. Diablo had its time-based buffs for rewards which actually gave you rewards per unit of time spent on specific missions and made sure all time played was rewarded. If you had a dry spell on a boss dungeon your drop rate of rare items would steadily increase on a timer until you got one.
This both restricts loot drops overall and tries to get people to play longer (despite less reward) while simultaneously and artificially trying to balance the loot drops for all levels of player but does so in a hidden manner and is NOT RANDOM. This is an inferior model. I think diablo's model of [b]'equalization' by actually making sure everyone gets loot[/b] is a better method.
We need to test these theories!
English
#feedback
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Edited by alleywig: 12/19/2017 6:37:13 AMI believe the mind can travel as far as it'd like. Your mind has gone to great depths to classify something that probably doesn't exist. However, if you are only 10% true in your conspiracies you are indeed credible - to some extent. I have major qualms with the perceived reward system that is in this game. There is absolutely no transparency involved. How much does a Fireteam Medallion boost your chances? It is not divulged in any way, and there is a possibility that the advantage is so minute that testing its validity would be too tedious. Bungie has set up a reward system that is in fact random, and does in fact change due to how they see the need to spend the various currencies. They do this to maintain balance. The idea of predetermined loot is an entertaining thought. Again, I think piecing out the minutia would be moot, but testing to see the results of Medallions and the prevalence of Legendary/Exotic Engrams could yield interesting results. I am most interested to know if killing everything yields more of a chance to have a Legendary Engram, or if the number of drops is determined at the beginning of a match. Last big question: Why don't Exotic Engrams drop and are instead rewarded through the UI? Seems lazy.
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7 RepliesSome rewrites and additions for clarity.
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I say they should just explain to us how it works. Why not? If it's actually random it's not like we could exploit it.
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2 RepliesYou have no evidence, just a conspiracy theory. So far, everything can be explained by pure randomness. There are over 9 million players. Odds are good that all these runs of bad luck or duplicates happen to many thousands of people all the time. Took me 30 raids to get 1 Fatebringer. Never seen a time piece drop for anyone until tonight. Have gotten more epilogues,vexes,and VoC than I can use. Well that's bound to happen for some part of the 9 million players. Some weapons seem to have lower drop rates for everyone. Like Timepiece and Foil. So the net result of differing odds in the drop table, a large number of exotics, and millions of players is pretty consistent with just random shitty RNG.
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1 ReplyEdited by possiblekillerx: 1/19/2015 2:09:50 AMHas there been any instance where a non-dlc player rolled a dlc weapon/armor that wasn't usable without purchasing said "Dark Below" dlc? It would be interesting to see if that were possible and if not so, it would prove there can be different "loot tables" for the two. That may also be a ploy to entice the player, who opted out of dlc so far, to purchase TDB/HOW. If the divide were true, it would ultimately mean that those who bought the dlc have less of a chance to roll new/better gear or even less of a chance to roll older gear like pre-TDB such as Gjallarhorn, (which is hard to believe since it seems so many have it and even duplicates) due to higher odds in fault of more items with the same RNG percentages. The more weapons/armor available to roll for overall, the more difficult it may become to acquire something of desire without raising the drop percentage of those certain items in all or individual tables. Who knows. Maybe they've re-adjusted or compensated for this.
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I think its random although i get what i call crumby exotics i have tooken note that about every other one i get is a new one
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2 RepliesI believe there is way more to it than random. My VoG completions have amounted to 8 vision of confluence, 3 found verdicts, an epilogue and a Vex. I run faithfully a few times a week just to see if I can pull fatebringer. I've even had a double VoC drop on hard Atheon. My exotics are all the same as well. 3 gjallarhorns, 2 universal remotes, 2 Suros, 2 Icebreakers. The other day I got 2 coiled hiss to in 5 minutes. I also get all the weapons from new monarchy all the time and they suck.
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I might agree on the hidden buff.. my friends and I took our lvl 28 alts to hard vog... we took turns being carried.. each time we all got exotics.... 3 from chest icebreaker, hawkmoon , multitool and vex from atheon
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You have definitely put a lot of work into your hypothesis that is for sure, but it is hard to draw a conclusion from either your personal experience or a few other account. However, there are some points that I see some similarities in my own experiences. This is especially apparent with your hypothesis regarding time played versus uncommon and rare engram drops. I think you are doing a great job, and try to gather more data over multiple accounts to boost your findings. More data means a better study.
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6 RepliesAfter reading this whole thing ive come to the conclusion most of you haven't got a clue about odds Or rng systems And I'll be honest it's getting old now really old every other post is about rng nearly
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From the beginning, I think determines your drop for that character. My Titan and warlock when first started received a shot gun from the very first chest in the game. Both of these characters receive very similar if not exact drops. My hunter on the other hand received a sniper rifle from the very first chest and her drops have been different, I haven't been able to fully test this theory because my hunter is lvl 18, but talking to others it seems that the first chest in the game has a big part in our weapons RNG.
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You're first paragraph would be spot on. RNG as by definition and as I've used it never has a pattern no matter what. Your chances of getting an exotic are the same as literally every other weapon, but as we all know that's not the case at all. When I coded and I want to randomly generate a series of numbers I could do it 50 times for just a few digits and I'll have repeats but not the same set of numbers 50% of the time. It's just so unlikely to happen that way let alone for myself and everyone else I have try it out. It could be a an RNG system where it has the percentages say 1% drop rate for exotic, 15% for legendary and so on, but if you roll that 1 pct and get put in the exotic placement, it rerolls to see which exotic you get. Lately for me I've gotten very unlucky and have gotten the lucky raspberry armor 4 times in 5 weeks. Not sure exactly how many times ive gotten exotics total, but I'm just saying for exotics with there being less of them than anything else you're bound to have more repeats. It's the same as the digit randomization, if you have 10 digits you're way more likely to repeat the same order than if you have 100 digits. The rarer they are the more likely you'll get something else you already have :(
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Great theories, I don't see why they couldn't just tell us how it works, not like we could exploit it if it's really just straight random. Would be interesting to know the truth, but then if it was in one way as you say, a predefined drop rate when you roll a character, people would be pissed.
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Edited by Borta Senglece: 1/15/2015 5:39:23 PMGreat theory. Made a hunter and I already had all legendary armor and exotics to give him. Leveled it up and did my first nightfall and got gjallarhorn... Did it on my 32 warlock and got the same rocket I got two weeks ago. Doing stuff with my (younger) hunter I've noticed a lot more "luck" with important drops I've yet to get with my warlock or Titan. Your on to something man!!!!
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Great theory. Made a hunter and I already had all legendary armpit and exotics to give him. Leveled it up and did my first nightfall and got gjallarhorn... Did it on my 32 warlock and got the same rocket I got two weeks ago. Doing stuff with my (younger) hunter I've noticed a lot more "luck" with important drops I've yet to get with my warlock or Titan. Your on to something man!!!!
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1 ReplyMy personal impression: total RNG
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I disagree. There are just loot tables based on being over or under level 20 and certain activities have certain tables they draw from. It's pretty basic and pretty random.
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1 ReplyThis is an interesting theory but there's no need for them to do that. Statistical variance would lead to the same effect in a pure rng, as any single player is statistically insignificant but the drops would normalize across the player base.
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3 RepliesEdited by iluvumaryj: 1/3/2015 6:22:54 PMPersonally, i kind of think that every cryptarch roll that doesnt equate into a higher tier wep (say a exotic from a legendary) u get a higher chance for 1 the next one i will go a month without getting a exotic from rahool then it seems ill get 3 or 4 in a couple days....never had too much luck in destiny until recently and in my opiniom they wouldnt put a system in place to incapacitate certain people from getting certain exotics...lets be honest here bungie/activisions goal is to get us to play as long as possible....why would they dull certain peoples experience by giving them lesser chances/no chance at getting a item....(would only make sense with a trade system in place in my opinion) Also...when u think about there really isnt THAT many exotics and the loot table (most likely ik other rng games that its been confirmed its how it works) its not just 1 giant loot table its sections...for example theres a exotic section...legendary section...etc u first roll to see which section u get in then roll again in that section when u think about it there really isnt that many exotics in the game (24 weapons probably wrong here i think its 20 something) so ur chances of getting the same exotic 1/24 is not that uncommon Although i do like the idea that certain exotics have a higher chance/dont drop at certain times to not bring too many of 1 into the game and would account for people getting many multiples because normally we play around the same time everyday
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1 ReplyI think you are onto something! My multiple exotic list: 3 Gjallarhorns 4 Patient & Time, 3 Hard Light, 4 Truth, 5 Suros, 2 Last Word. In that time I'm still yet to get an Icebreaker, Thunderlord, Red Death & Universal Remote. Some exotics they just don't want you to get.
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I can't see them screwing a player from the start like this, even for Bungie. And if this is the case, then I may as well stop playing now because essentially you're saying the rest of my time on destiny is going to be miserable. I have never received an exotic drop or reward. Ever. My drops and rewards are always shit. So this is my destiny? A life of grinding for garbage? Phuck that!
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1 ReplyTo explain this more easily from a computer programming perspective. Of course the RNG isn't 100% random. Everything in computer programming is always based on some sort of algorithm that even in the most random of generators starts to repeat itself eventually.
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Bout my 4 crucible match when the game came out, last place with a k/d of .33 n got Thunderlord. Every time I play crucible it's always the worst player, I seen a guy get 47 n 2 he got nothing, dude that just joined end of match got ghorn lol
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I've gotten ghorn,p&t, & plan c all from crucible. Usually after I have a horrible game. ( not even counting legendary weapons) Your prob right. I also got 3 or 4 exotic bounties as soon as I hit 20
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I have thought this from day 1. Some people get A LOT more exotic/legendaries than others. And I believe that when you made your guardian at the beginning there's a random code that is added that specifies the level of loot and how often you get it. My titan gets a lot more random rares from chests. Never gotten a legendary or exotic. My Hunter barely gets rates from a chest and has gotten two legendary drops from enemies. I don't play my lock that much and only get rares. My brother has gotten 7 exotics from chests!!!! I've gotten one from a postmaster care package after leveling up my vanguard rank and one at the end of a strike. All the exotic or legendary stuff I've bought.
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2 Replies