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11/10/2014 10:25:05 PM
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PvP: Hunter>Warlock>Titan - A statistical analysis
Having done my first few crucible matches with the Warlock I wasn't really surprised to see a significant increase in performance over my main character, a Titan, even though I haven't even unlocked all VW subclass abilites and am wearing shitty gear at lvl 25 (I unlocked Blink yesterday - a COMPLETE game changer), let alone consider the fact that I have a severe lack of experience with the class (about 30 crucible matches vs. about 500). Combat ratings: 153 (WL) vs. 130 (Titan) as of this moment.
There are a few obvious reasons for that in my opinion but a discussion about abilites won't get us far since you can always come up with arguments wether a class is stronger than another one or not.
So what can we do? We can take a look at the stats provided by http://destinytracker.com/ which tracks performances of hundred thousands of players around the globe. If you want an objective source on possible class imbalances, sites as the one mentioned above are as close as you can get.
I'll keep it as short and simple (KISS) as possible. You can dig super deep into the numbers provided by destinytracker.com, however whatever stats you compare you will get the same result: Hunters are the best class in PvP, followed by Warlocks and, lastly, Titans, who are at the bottom.
Datto did a video about this fact [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKi30mhzglw&list=UUkmAjbIecTIjTQctolYeuDw] but I think he approached the discussion about class balance in a wrong way by comparing the kill-percentage of Supers with their total kill count (If I'm not mistaken, he concluded that Hunters have double the amount of Super kills compared to that of Warlocks and Titans in relation to their total kills.) Lots of people argued, and rightfully so, that you can't just look at one isolated ability. You have to take the whole class into account.
So let's take a look at 'performance' stats (such as K/D, score/match, kills/match, etc.) of all classes in the top 20 (with at least 50 matches under their belt). Keep in mind that this is a very simple approach. You can compare whatever relevant stat you want to, however, and will always come to the same conclusion: Hunter>Warlock>Titan.
Let's take a look at the combined (alls platforms) monthly (November) leaderboards.
Median K/D of the top 20 Hunters/Warlocks/Titans: 5.5/4.5/4.2
Median Kills/game of the top 20 Hunters/Warlocks/Titans: 26.8/24.3/23.9
Median score per game: 5,260,00/4,446,00/4,357,00
Best single game kills: 53/52/48
As you can see the difference between Warlocks and Titans isn't as big as between Hunters and Warlocks (across all stats).
You can pick whatever relevant stat you want. It will always be the same result.
TLDR: See title of the post. Bungie, please fix this blatant imbalance when it comes to class abilites (hopefully with the 'big patch' that is supposed to hit within the next few weeks.)
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I'll never understand why people say hunters are the best in pvp. Warlocks and titans have the far better supers and skills.
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2 RepliesI think badass players just tend to pick badass classes.
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1 ReplyCorrelation =/= causation, meaning that looking at the stats doesn't prove anything. Perhaps more skilled players tend to use Hunters. How do you know those top 20 Hunters wouldn't have the same K/D if they were Titans? You don't.
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Edited by Lord Yesua: 11/16/2014 6:29:35 PMI think that this is a hasty generalisation. The statistics can be bent to support your bias. There is no direct correlation between the numbers and the abilities of a particular class. It could be that the best players usually main with Hunters, not that Hunters themselves are OP. It could be that the majority of Destiny players first chose to play with the Hunter and so a body of experience and skill has accumulated with the Hunter more than with the other class types. I'm sure many other factors could be taken into consideration. In fact, the current data for the Xbox shows that most of top players are Warlocks. This goes a long way toward showing that Warlocks have the potential to be the best class in the game (not that I'm making that correlation). What I'm trying to say is this, it would seem that your analysis is guilty of discarding unfavourable data. [i]That's not cool bro.[/i] Six out of the top ten players are Warlocks. Currently, the best player is a Warlock. These are also factors which would have to be taken into consideration. If the Hunter is the OP class in the game, then how is it possible for Warlocks to dominate the top of the food chain? 1 Shes My Nerd [30/[b]Warlock[/b]] 2 Baconators Live [29/Hunter] 3 im ZER0 [27/Hunter] 4 Wish You Luck [30/[b]Warlock[/b]] 5 I Eatz Bullets [30/[b]Warlock[/b]] 6 Mr A2D Blackout [29/[b]Warlock[/b]] 7 infamousX [29/Hunter] 8 DyN Prospering [29/Hunter] 9 Bloody Scenes [30/[b]Warlock[/b]] 10 Pilotages [30/[b]Warlock[/b]] By way of conclusion, there are at least three problems with the above post: 1] Correlation does not prove causation; 2] Hasty generalisation based on the average does not prove that Hunters are OP; 3] And, the disregarding of unfavourable data is indicative of an anti-hunter bias. Personally, I think the Crucible is reasonably balanced. If anything, the problem lies more with guns than powers.
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Most of these "top players" team up to spawn trap randoms. You do sooo much better with dedicated pvp partners
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1 ReplyYour data is meaningless if everything isn't controlled. Maybe you just played against better or worse people. That's an example of a variable that would need to be constant or else there is no way to tell if the data is valid.
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There are pros and cons with every class. I have one of each, and my favorite is my titan. Hunter is my second favorite with warlock coming in last. I hate the hunter jump. Love the warlock freeze mid jump. But I love everything about my titan. I wish I could have a throwing knife on my titan, those are kinda fun with minimum effect.
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1 ReplyUtterly stupid. 1. Majority of people started and main hunters. 2. Most hardcore FPS' are/chose a Hunter. 3. Class in general sucks (ability wise) 4. Player skill will always be taken into account.
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3 RepliesOne of the most OP things in the game is the titan shoulder charge... Really a one hit kill everywhere
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1 ReplyEdited by sh0ck: 11/12/2014 10:02:41 PMChoosing to play as a Hunter makes you a better player? Or the best players choose to play as Hunters?
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Great post
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2 RepliesUr testing isn't controlled at all; While u change character u are also changing; 1. Maps 2. Ppl playing against 3. Weapons (if not switching) 4. Time playing To name a few, so unless all of the above is exactly the same then u can't definitively argue one is better than thr other. Also why are you taking the median values?!? Take the mean everytime, it is statistically wayyyyyyy more significant. E.g median kd 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,10. Kd = 1 Mean kd = 1.9 Mean = true average Median = snapshot in time (cherry picking)
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4 RepliesYeah, Hunters are a better choice in PVP but they're easily the worst choice in PVE. You could also argue that Hunters are only slightly better in PVP while Warlocks and Titans are dramatically better in PVE. Everything in this game has pros and cons. Nothing is the be all end all best option.
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3 RepliesThis is dumb, I do better with my Titan than both other characters, Striker of course.
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Heads up, it's supposedly several patches across the next few weeks
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5 RepliesI score more points and kill more players with my Hunter, but my Warlock and Titan are still competitive.
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1 ReplyEdited by CaptainChortles: 11/11/2014 7:46:06 AMNot that I don't agree with the ordering but getting medians of top Top 20 for populations that are not even equal in size doesn't mean much. For example, if there were 10,000 Hunters and only 5,000 Warlocks, you'd probably have more good Hunters than Warlocks in the Top 20. For every player of X quality, there would be two players of that quality, thus shifting the median of the Top 20 more towards the highest player. For example, say you have 6 Warlocks. 10.0 9.0 8.0 7.0 6.0 5.0 Now you have 12 Hunters. 10.0 10.0 9.0 9.0 8.0 8.0 7.0 7.0 6.0 6.0 5.0 5.0 Examine the Top 5. Median K/D for Warlocks would be 8.0. Median K/D for Hunters would be 9.0. Yet, mean K/D is still the same once you examine the whole of that classes' players. Hunters are probably the most played class in the Crucible, thus they will have more high skill players to fill the Top 20 lists. Even if all classes had identical statistical averages over the whole playerbase, whichever class had more players would have the higher Top 20 values.
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1 ReplyActually as someone who did statistical analysis you have some errors. First off you're doing an a~proportionate stat based on "the best" of each group which is not relative to the whole population. In other words if you made the statement that "the best hunter is better than the best titan and warlock" you might have some proof there. The problem in so far as classes go and Crucible are these variables: 1-which matches do each classes excel in 2-are there classes that have a proportionate rate of excellence in some match types versus others (ie. will a deathmatch favor a titan striker more than control do to the ability of knowing the probability that your special can be saved for objective spots versus a random target) 3-do KDR's also reflect wins as in are players assuming less risky roles in favor of deaths? Your stats don't really prove anything. In Control Hunters tend to have the most mitigating factors as in in ability to strike most individuals with least exposure to risk. In deathmatches they tend to have great advantages on par to a warlock as you can't use objective areas to assume the path a target will take. Most hunters also take lesser risks in Control from relying on camo and snipers resulting in a high KDR but limited ability to contribute on the field which in turn has more negative effect on winning unless they can use a sniper to help defend an objective area. You would also need to include variables such as actual Crucible time, type of equipment deployed whether it be exotic handguns and auto rifles and even differences in traits of their armor from increased melee speed to faster special build up. Leaderboards are typically cheerleader tools for anyone's epeen and the idea of using data off a leaderboard to apply to the population in general is pretty dumbfounded. Yes Hunters have a high KDR but it's also a reason why you see them mostly maintain their KDR's in death matches where their specials give a unique advantage to them over other classes. And you still see them flock to other matches like Rumble and Control but they have a far more difficult time holding their own in those match types; because you can safely assume where targets are heading to you can take out mass targets in one shot surprise specials which is not something a hunter can pull off. You don't have to agree with anything i said but it's pretty at least factual for the groundwork I've stated.
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Yes, it's well known throughout most people that play the crucible often that Hunters lead the pack. It's just the nature of their supers being wholly better then Void/Striker, while giving them the flexibility to choose between a better version of voidwalker and a better version of striker to suite the map better.
