Was the random selecting supposed to be random at the start of the raid back in September? Because it seems like that issue would have been addressed a lot sooner or it would have been noticed in testing. Or was it regarded as being too easy with everyone having certain roles once the public got a hold of it? Because to me (just an opinion) beating the Templar was a lot easier than beating atheon if you did it the way it was designed to be fought (running around stopping teleports, shooting oracles, and calling out minatours so your team could mob squad em all while under the fire of innumerable enemies and the Templar) I'm just curious and would completely understand the change if the case was it seemed to easy. Ps. Please stop nerfing/buffing stuff. As much as I hate the suros or fusion rifles please don't mess with em. Those kind of patches always seem to end with a snowball effect of patches to patch patches that patched patches.... And so on. (Again just an opinion based on how I've seen other games hurt themselves) Thanks for ya time

Personally, I do not see the change as a big deal. I also have many many years playing MMO's where random selection has been a mechanic in several fights throughout the years. Others will see it as a big change however. It will be a learning curve for many. There will be some raging over it. A week or two from now people will have it mastered if they bother to try.

Myself, my gf and 4 friends (that we have never raided with before now, 3 of which were raid freshmen) were able to do it on easy mode, it made it a bit more challenging because i am usually shield bearer and only got ported 30% of the time but it was easy to teach the others how to use it over party chat. It took us about 40min-1hr to do but it is possible with newbies and i personally like the change it adds an extra challenge that makes your team think on their feet. Not looking forward to doing it hard mode though :/

I'm all for the raids being hard. If this was how the raid was to begin with, I don't think anybody would have a problem with it at all (you know, just like the random Templar shields that nobody complains about ever). The problem with the change now (2 months into a 4? month raid, since when the new expac hits, everybody is going to be doing that raid), is all the super progression raiders, the guys trying to beat HM at lvl 27, going for world first clears....have already beaten VoG to death. The regular progression raiders, the ones that went in and started doing HM shortly after, but had no thought of being world first or anything....have already beaten VoG to death. The regular raiders, the guys that formed groups on week 1 or 2, maybe it took them a week or 2 to start beating it but are now doing HM....have beaten VoG to death. Are any of these guys going to have problems with the new random teleport? Not likely. There might be a little confusion at first, but just about every person has probably been teleported before anyway, and has probably held the relic at some point. They are gonna be fine. This is going to hurt the casual raider. The ones that just barely got to atheon, or maybe haven't even got to atheon yet. Its going to hit them so much harder than the others. Can they get by it? Of course, but its going to be harder for them, both in finding groups (I've heard a lot of people say they won't take new guys) and in gameplay (You now have to learn and be able to do all parts of the fight, all while learning how the actual encounter goes, thats a lot to take in) You don't make raids HARDER, halfway through the lifecycle of the raid. You make them EASIER so more and more people can get into the raid and beat it and get geared up for the next expac/raid. Now given, with all the cheez bugs you couldn't hardly make VoG any easier without just handing out loot in the mail for logging in, but you shouldn't be actively making it harder when there are so many other bugs in VoG you could be fixing

http://www.giveemthepickle.com/pickle_principle.htm Please read this, it is the very foundation of customer service. You rely on your customers to stay in business. Read and understand, give em the pickle!

I did the raid as intended for my first time as a level 26 with a group of veterans and made it through it. It felt very rewarding afterwards (no exploits needed) There's going to be challenges in the future that are going to be even harder. Use this raid to bring your skill level up so you stand a chance in the next raid. Build a group of your friends or post in the forums for teammates and learn how to work as a team and you can knock down the raid in under 2 hours. I'm not the greatest gamer when it comes to destiny, I have many hours into it but I still die a lot in the raid but patience and hard work with great communication gets me through it.

I think it's strange that there has been no mention of fixing the issues where the portals don't teleport properly, Atheon can shoot through the relic shield, and the Minotaur's health recharges. These happen quite often and ruin the experience as the raid is hard enough as it is, but when the game doesn't work as it's supposed to, it makes it practically impossible. That's not a legitimate challenge, it's faulty programming.

If the portal has not been fixed then thats just ludicrous. Almost always not getting teleported when walking through the portal is a huge bug. Especially if screen is getting dark and a cleanse is needed.

How about fixing all the real bugs that prevent people from killing it? Like getting ported back inside? Or oracles killing you even after you've killed them? Of all the things wrong with Atheon you guys chose to "fix" who gets ported as opposed to fixing all the bugs that ruin the raid experience for people when they are doing it correctly. GG.

Yeah what difference does it make that you read this. You gave direct evidence that the company doesn't care what we want or think. That's a shame

Give us a RAID JOURNAL, and teach us how to PROPERLY deal with the bosses and mini bosses (gorgons) ok? Since we, the players have NO IDEA how we are SUPPOSED to kill the boss, because your apes on bungie did not give us any clue. Therefore, we had to improvise. Now PLEASE TELL US HOW TO PROPERLY DEFEAT ANY RAID BOSS, and NO i am not going to look at some fanboy youtube video for raid walkthrough. GIVE US RAID JOURNAL with IN-GAME ACCESS

I'm fine with Atheon not being able to be pushed off the platform anymore, but I don't understand the logic behind randomly selecting three people to be teleported. It's one thing to increase the difficulty of the raid. But introducing a random factor whose sole purpose is to completely remove a viable strategy to defeat the boss is the wrong way to do so, in my opinion.

I feel like this wouldn't be a big deal if the vex was rebuffed by this point so it could actually be a viable option for killing oracles. It is laughably bad at doing this and I know many people who stubbornly use it and claim that it's not that bad. It really does take almost an entire 56 round clip to kill oracles with the Vex. Now in my PUGs I'm going to have to lecture everybody on why the Vex isn't a viable option for the Atheon fight anymore because of it's horrid lack of ammo and effectiveness against oracles.

Any team aspect isn't about everyone doing everything. In the military you have a specific job to carry out. You don't do it all. In sports you have a position to play and you become proficient at that position. Forcing a team to be good at all aspects seems like a way of making the game tougher and not about teamwork at all. Seems strategy is thrown out the window in defeating this boss. Players can fall off the edge but the boss can't. We can't set up a strategy based on our playing styles as to who does what. We don't have guaranteed rewards for defeating the boss. This may seem like whining but common, this is reminding me a lot of the omnipotent game master in dungeon and dragons who simply couldn't figure out how to best the players in a fair fight and simply created the touch of death your player is dead. How are we supposed to believe you that it is random and not the weakest player or the ones who havnt been teleported as often or a specific class etc. Make it tough. Make atheon have his own strategy and not simply random make him tough and reward us guardians for a great game played using a great strategy to beat him. I love the game but some decisions on patches and both inclusion or exclusion of game content seem to make no real sense to me. Thank you for listening

So if it is harder whats the point if most of the loot we get is bullshit. You up the difficulty but give bullshit until the end and you can still get screwed by rng.

Deej I just want to say that while I think both these updates are good for the game, I believe you are making the right choices to provide content and help keep the community alive but the truth is this is why I will probably go play sunset overdrive or call of duty in a few weeks, please don't stop reading here, most of my friends have run the raid multiple times and because of my work schedule and family including my second baby on the way I have played Destiny at every opportunity and racked up days of play time in those late nights . I still have never found a legendary engram that was actually legendary pre-patch and post I haven't found one for my class (so I'm trying the others) i've never found a legendary or exotic weapon so rather than sit on my bum crying woe is me, I worked hard earned rep saved all my strang coins for weeks and purchased a few and have been trying to level them. I find it increasingly difficult to find acendent shards and energy and despite MANY invitations to PUG raids groups I have never gotten any actual loot from my attempts save my armband which I wear proudly. Now the gap between my level 30 friends and me trapped seemingly shardless at 27 feels like a gap I can never close, heck I've never been able to complete a nightfall for lack of teammate s willing to help or my own failers. I think you have made one of the best game ideas of all time but if you had made it more difficult in the beginning and turned down the knobs a bit later maybe I'd feel differently, less like" because I'm a casual player that plays in every spare minute I can that I don't deserve to enjoy the things the no lifers won't stop talking about in every outlet they can" than I'm just am not good enough to earn it yet and that if I put in more time I could get there. The most important "promise " I thought you were making with this game is that I could play "when I had time, just log in for a few minutes and maybe do a bounty or see what's new in the tower" But I've done that for weeks and felt like I've gained nothing and I've stay awake all night and grinded for hours and felt like I've only scratched the surface of an iceberg and am not worthy to see the deapths of. I've loved your games since you were the reason I joined Xbox and stayed there for all these years, I love your commitment to fans and community and I hope you will continue to work hard on making Destiny as special as it deserves to be, I hope that you read this, I hope someone understands and I hope someone does what it takes to make this Game... This Idea what it could be. Thank you.

well, i admit i am not good at raid, but there are people out there doing it in short time, so overall i would say you failed in building a long lasting hard raid! now you call the teletransporting as it was before an issue? seriously?

DeeJ...but what about Thorn? ;-;

If you've read the update notes, and then went on destiny, you will notice that the cockatoo code has been replaced with the monkey code and is occurring more frequently than ever because more people are admitting that Destiny is bad and Bungie are not happy with this. This is project "Atheons revenge", also know as, "Bungies revenge on people with good eyesight who can see that this is a -blam!-ed up game".

Deej thank you for saying that you listen to our threads and comments but like a lot of people say on here you read our opinions and comment's but I feel you definitely DONT LISTEN to them. I am not in the industry so I can't imagine how hard inputting code is on these games as it goes over my head but surely you have enough staff to be able to input some of these fantastic ideas that people have placed in the feedback forum about how to improve the PVE element of the game which is SURELY the MOST IMPORTANT part of the game which will keep the majority of players interested? Can you not take at least some time out of your days to even just acknowledge some of these ideas such as some one fired off this idea, a horde/firefight mode like you did in halo reach where you have outposts in the patrol areas of these planets and a team of 6-12 or even 24 guardians have to either defend it from on coming waves of enemies which get increasingly difficult and possibly once a week the darkness armies have taken over the outposts and we have to drive them back??? Surely if people like me whom love PVE and still relive happy memories on reach want this it might stave off hundreds of your player base walking away because of the lack of content and the obvious constant pushing PVP content probably because of activision ( even though I am sure they couldn't care less about destiny when next weeks CoD AW appears in shops. ) If you guys at bungie could just give us something to wet our appetites about what your doing to fix the lack of content in the biggest part of your game it would be great many thanks

Remember when you guys took feedback and listened to your fanbase? I do too and it was wonderful. But what happened? What really happened? I miss the old Bungie that was active with the community and could talk to players to better balance their game. For the record, I support Atheon being patched to not be pushed off the edge. What I'm against is making the teleports random. Yes the raid is supposed to be hard, but when people do it over and over they get into a rhythm of beating it like it's nothing. Last week I raided with my group and we rarely talked about what to do in the raid, we talked about other things while we raided because we knew exactly what to do and how to handle things. That's what happens in most raids. The players learn the mechanics to the very point of practically doing it without communication. You don't see companies like Blizzard or Square Enix changing a few things in their raids because players are making them seem easy (Patching exploits that defeat the boss while neglecting any proper strategy doesn't count). Just admit that we the players have beaten your raid to the point we consider it easy. Getting bothered by the fact we trivialized your supposed 'hard raid' and forcing RNG on the last boss seems like it was done out of spite. So what? Accept it wasn't as hard as you thought it would be and do a better job with Crota's End and future content. Make the mechanics more challenging without relying on random factors. Force us to communicate in order to beat it. A good raid doesn't rely on RNG to create artificial difficulty. Some players are better at certain things than others and there's nothing wrong with that. It gives that player a specific role in a raid and that's what each player should have, a job that they need to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iadfsifa4i8 At 4:00 in to the video Eric mentioned players having very specific tasks assigned to them. All of that is out the window with this 'fix'. Players don't have specific roles at Atheon anymore. Now you either hope the players that are good with the relic get teleported in or you'll end up wiping because of RNG. I hope the team takes all of this feedback sincerely. We love the game and we're passionate about it which is why we seem so negative at times about different aspects in it. We just want to see Destiny become better and more enjoyable overall.