I'm all for having a steep skill requirement as an obstacle to completing the raid, but for some of us working stiffs with wives, kids, and other real priorities, getting schedules to mesh is still by far the hardest aspect of the raid. It's frustrating to have an atheon checkpoint go to waste because my friends all have competing real life priorities just like I do. (Don't even bother mentioning playing with randoms. They're too... random.) As it stands now, for me - and I can't imagine I'm alone in this - the stars need to be in perfect alignment just to be able to have the opportunity to set foot in the vault let alone complete it. Instead of a complete weekly reset, why not just have a week-long cooldown timer on characters to be able to get loot drops? Let us carry our progress over from week to week. It would be far less frustrating than watching another week go by and having to start over at the beginning only to not be able to get a team back together to finish. I think it's problematic when schedule becomes the rate limiting factor to progress in a game, rather than skill. The random teleportation just compounds things. I had gotten to the point where I could run a three man team in the main room to keep the portals open with no problem, but I have no idea what to do inside the portals or what to do with the relic. That was just never my job. My job was on the outside, and I was pretty good at that, and felt like a valued member of the team. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem learning different roles in the vault, but it would be nice to not have to go through the beginning parts every week just to *maybe* have a chance at getting a team together for Atheon later.

Two Things: First: Vault wasn´t easy before, it was hard even on normal(if you did it the way bungie intended to). It needed teamwork and communication and also some degree of Skill, not everyone is good at everything, im bad with the Relic for example, so when i have to take it my team will suffer and i could have been of more use on a different position. With this update it´s not really about teamwork, communication, tactic anymore it´s more like having six people thrown together everyone plays for himself but all with the same goal. There isn´t really a need anymore to build up some strategy it´s just 6 people all doing the same thing and 3 of them get teleported randomly. So it comes down to who gets the relic first, how high your skill as an individual is and how experienced you are no teamwork needed. Second: What is with those that don´t have lots of experience in the Vault yet? It was hard for them to find a group beforehand now it will become even harder, due to the Vault being more unpredictable and not everyone knows from minute one what the Relic is for and how and when you have to use it. Someone who isn´t experienced in this will fail, and so will his team. That person doesn´t even really gets the chance to look at others how they do things, all the team can do is explain beforehand and hope for the best. I already see a trend in Raid groups to kick out less good members or just inviting experienced ones. To be honest, i don´t like it but it´s updates like these that enforce people to do that. Hope it gets across what i wanted to say, since im not native english.

Can yall fix the loot system? I'm tired of getting chatter white a 100 times but only have gotten one piece of raid gear

I agree that it wasn't ment to be easy. I'm glad they fixed pushing him off. But you guys should of patched the time stream right away and actually acted like it was a bug. Now it's been how long, where we have all worked out our roles with our groups and they say it's a fix? It doesn't look like a fix now. It looks like another wrench they throw in to try to slow us down because they don't like how fast people are progressing.

Thank you DeeJ

Are warlocks no good anymore then? Lol :) I'm personally glad Atheon can't be knocked off now. Just a shame it took so long to fix

So what it boils down to is that the best and most interesting (and rewarding) content in the game isn't for those of us who have been playing Bungie games for decades and now by this time have responsibilities, full time jobs, kids, and very little free time? I'd love to try Vault of Glass or any other future raids, but it's hard enough for me to find a group of players on a normal strike, let alone a raid that's supposed to be the hardest content in the game. What little free time I have I'd like to spend playing this incredibly fun game but this kind of gameplay design alienates a significant demographic out of your product. You're basically filtering it down to the fact that it's limiting the best parts of the game for kids with LOTS of free time. This is also going to trickle down to Iron Banner because the players with the best gear (grinding it out with endless free time) are going to be one shotting players with the best Exotic weapons. I can appreciate hard games (I play DayZ, Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Ninja Gaiden, Halo on Legendary) but those games are also balanced to include the ability to solo the hard modes. This doesn't allow us to do that. It makes sense to adjust the changes for Hard Mode in Raids, but think about those of us who are now being intentionally gated. Like I said, I'd like to play but it's hard enough finding a random group to do these raids with... let alone a group of friends that I know.

Nice changes keep em coming, my team won't be changed much by this although the random time-stream bit will be interesting. Just look into the multiple chatterwhite thing I have 5 of them at this point would and received all the subsequent ones while wearing chatterwhite. Also can't wait for the exotic buff i like thorn but I have better choices at the moment.

Nothing was fixed, you guys only made the game worse. Atheon can still be cheesed, and now no one can stay connected for more than 5 minutes. Great Job Bungie!

Thank you for fixing the bugs, and thank you for making it random. It's supposed to be challenging, and after we got it down the first time, the second felt pretty easy. The raid should be hard and hard mode should be even harder. The people I raid with want a challenge, want to feel like we are beating the real boss as intended. We'll use everything we can to our advantage, but we'll adapt and we'll be a stronger crew because of it. Since you'll be reading these comments (hopefully you aren't drowned out yet), I'd like to add in a few things my clan mates and I have discussed specifically about the raid. First, thank you for making the "trash" before a boss fun. For making them apart of the encounter, and not just "pull this group, now pull this group." They aren't trash, they are part of the encounter. These events are carried over from other earlier missions, and they are fun. Next, I'm mostly cool with the way loot works. I'm with it. I understand, especially with things like weapons. However, it is frustrating to see a guildmate get the same weapon and no armor run after run, even on different characters. I'm cool with steady progression, but RNG means there are people out there who won't ever get the armor needed for 30. So, provide some means to "build it". Possibly something where you find "Fragments of Armor" instead of whole pieces, and you get them after each boss kill, and with that, you can reforge that into armor. I believe that still fits with the style and story, and it means progression is always happening, and not reliant soley on RNGesus. Atheon gets bumpers. You got any more of those for us players? =) No? What's that? lrn2jump? Okay =( The place is huge, and epic! You realize this, right? Because whatever comes next needs to be huger and epicer! However, the ending is less than stellar. Event Molten Core left you with a wonderful hammer sticking out of the magma, and you could get a screenshot for the website. There is nothing like that. Sure, there is video, but man, posing for a picture is something that legends do! Mr. Rewrite Time itself couldn't handle us! So, let's make sure when we finish a raid, it's more than just some glimmer explosion and a timer stuck on 0. Oh, and finally, while Warlocks are nice, Hunters are clearly superior. I mean, the developers made that clear when they designed them.

Agree with a previous poster, the random teleport was not a fix, it was the devs realizing that the players were smarter than they thought

The Atheon patch has me a little perturbed, I won't lie. Destiny from the start has proven to be, for me at least, very underwhelming. Lack of content, a short story, a multiplayer that you can't believe came from the creators of Halo, and a general lack of stuff to do; unless you enjoy the same bounties on rinse and repeat, and hours of grinding and loops for materials... if you do, in fact, enjoy those two things; then, more power to you and enjoy. Now to have them patch things, that, in my opinion should've been addressed before the launch, feels like Bungie is now dictating [b][i][u]how[/u][/i][/b], I will play this underwhelming game. That is the issue I have with the update. If I want to force Atheon off of a ledge, then I should have that option. If Time's Conflux is foolish enough to back himself off of a cliff, then let him, and give me my fancy rewards. If, I and my crew want to blast Atheon to dust with various weapons, grenades, and supers, then that should also be our choice. Whichever path we choose, in my opinion, it should be the gamer's choice. Again, this is just my BS opinion. It seems though, that there has been a growing trend in the opinions of those I game with, that, this game doesn't really have a lot of replay outside of grinding the VoG twice a week. This will likely result in moving Destiny to the [b]"trades"[/b] pile for me. Not that Bungie will care or notice, they've already got my money; it's just a shame, IMO, to lose fans and customers over something that IMO should be left up to the gamer. Again, just my BS opinion here.

Gotta fix Templar exploit then the raid is bombing!!!

I love the changes, will the Templar's revenge be coming in a patch soon?

This makes sense in a way tho. All the rewards from the raid are random, now so are the mechanics. I bet when the dLC comes out the price will be random for every purchase too. Is that why the story is so bad? Have we just unlocked parts at random? If so, I understand now.

I say bring on the new Atheon! It's a new challenge, embrace it. I applaud Bungie for not caving and standing by what you've created. Keep it going, stop the fanatics and harpies from despawning in between confux phases of the Templar, hiding until they despawn is too easy.

Thanks Deej. However the difficulty from the atheon fight will not be from the random teleports, but from the constant the skill / equipment swapping. I'm the type of person that likes to create a load out based on the situation to contribute more efficiently to my team. I love destiny for allowing to you to do this. I love class skills and RPGs. But here's the problem... If I go through portal, I'm striker smashing with fist of havoc and rocking the Atheons epilogue shotgun and rocket launcher. If I'm defending gates outside, I use red death, a sniper rifle and machine gun and pop weapons of light when our portal team comes out for that damage buff. I, like most team players, like knowing that my load out and adjusted play style was tailored to a situation and therefore had a beneficial impact to the group. For players like me, the real challenge for this fight now post fix, will not be the random teleports per se, but will be me switching out a ton of skills and equipment every time I'm teleported or not teleported. If the skill \ equipment swap menu was VASTLY faster then it currently is, this patch would not bother me at all. But those spinning circles as you wait for your gear to load now means I'm gonna stress my fire team out with me just sitting around with potentially every portal change. It would be alot less annoying for me to just have a generic load out that basically would suit both situations, but not excel in either. You guys just made a fun fight less fun and more frustrating for team players like myself. I may be in the minority here. But I feel like you've taken the only fun fight in the game that required actual strategy, and where players could consistently showcase their skills for situations, by simply making it annoyingly random, adding difficulty through frustration. People, just like the destiny classes, have their strengths and weakness. Like any RPG, some people just enjoy certain rolls more than others and in turn play their role well. Adding randomness to the fight just feels like you guys are trolling the players lol

Cairo Station, New raid plz.

Fix the -blam!-ing rewards. got chatterwhite and shards again. If you're going to increase the difficulty fix the damn rewards.

All I can say is LOL. It's a thing to fix the cheesing, but getting random teleport when you have no matchmaking system and you know, the majority of raid game is being done by a bunch of people that don't know each others. You know when gamer need to create their own matchmaking website because bungie doesn't understand how to do it. *destinylfg.com* *destinylfg.net* *destinytracker.com* It's like we are getting laugh in the face. We all know that raid should not be easy, but people that get to play it may or may not be elite and everyone that pays for your game deserve to play it all. Some people are better doing a role than an other. Leaving us the choice to do so is something you'll never regret and at this pace you'll see a decline in game. People needs to be happy to play the game and for the hardcore gamer that always complain and cry, not everyone is lucky to play 26h a day and the majority of us have responsability, family, works, etc. Get your things done correctly and stop seeing us as lamb.

Good thing I got my last piece of raid gear No more raid

All I have to say is I like how you told the devs that we didn't want random teleports and they flat out told you thats not what they want. Nice to know the devs at Bungie don't care what the community wants, but at least you care Deej. At least you care.

I don't mind Atheon can't be pushed anymore but the ignorance of the developers towards the random teleporting is an absolute insult towards a PvE community that already has every right to complain for lack of content and overall repetitiveness of the game! (not to mention the nerfs of weapons for PvP reasons) If the random teleporting was intended from the beginning then why wasn't it there from the beginning?! The answer is simpel and an even bigger insult to all: bad design and/or bad testing (including negative) and the sole reason why there are STILL multiple issues with the raid that have NOT been fixed with this patch. What about minotaurs instantly getting their shields back, what about the glitches in teleporting in general? And with the random teleporting; How to pick up new players and teach them? What about the ability to quickly swith primary that is almost required if you do not have a proper raid gun. What about the the random rewards? You think that we want to invest all the required time into the raid only to get another f*ching chatter white and some shards again and again? TLDR: I think the time for discussion is over Deej. I think you've just flushed the majority of your PvE community that already tried so hard just to like the game cause of the great potential it has. But it does not look like you or Bungie will bring anything other to the table than a slap into the face to us PvE players again and again plus develop the game only things we don't want and paid DLC which undoubtly will be as repetitive as everything else in Destiny. [i][b]Game over[/b][/i]