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Edited by DeeJ:
10/28/2014 3:38:45 PM
3117
Thoughts and Opinions about Atheon's Revenge.
So, the update just went live. Atheon can no longer be pushed off his platform. He'll also select people at random to be thrown across time. He's a real bastard, eh?
I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns.
I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?"
I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy."
At that point, I recalled all the times I stood and delivered the line "...the most challenging encounter we've ever created." It was hard to disagree. As a veteran of Cairo Station on Legendary in Halo, I had to admit that I had been carried through the Raid like luggage assigned to my clan. I did my own carrying later, but carrying had been done.
This is an activity that was designed to be undertaken by a hardcore team that is ready and willing to adapt and improvise to changing battle conditions. Like the moment when the Templar shields random players, the Final Boss was supposed to be extremely dangerous. While we've been working on some of the other things for which you've been asking (i.e. better exotics, voice chat in matchmaking, more bounties), the designers who made the Raid have plugged the holes that you showed them.
If you got in on the ground floor of this thing, we thank you. If you understand the mechanics for how to beat Atheon, it's still a thing you can teach your friends. If you're all up to the challenge, the Raid is waiting for you.
Let's talk about it. Please sound off in this thread, and know that I'll be reading.
English
#Destiny
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DeeJ, make everything harder, I'm a hardcore gamer and it's easy for me now. Can you make an option like on halo where Elite raiders can Fight hard raid x3 the difficulty, I WANT the challenge!!! Granted, Both normal mode and HArd were very Difficult a when i FIRST did them , but i adapt quickly, now i do them both for fun...
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randomizing part of that fight, while it does make it harder, is a cheap way of doing it without actually spending anytime to actually think about the problem. problem is i dont know how else this fight can be made harder without a complete rebuild of said encounter. in all honesty, this change to the atheon fight isnt going to make it any harder. all your effectively doing is making all players learn how to perform all aspects of the fight. eventually, they will, and it will end up just as easy as it is currently. its just a time thing, but eventually, people will be back to completing VoG in less then an hour. what it will do is make it harder for non-clan based groups to complete. i.e. the people that dont raid all that often. and to call the previous mechanic as an issue, i think is misleading. picking the furthest 3 players as it worked, didnt seem like a bug, or issue. it seemed like it was the designed mechanic. and this "randomizing" who is teleported into the time stream, will only make hard mode even harder. but again, over time, those who are currently beating it, will eventually continue too because they'll all learn every aspect of the fight (and there's not that much to learn about it, lets be honest). man, i have some amazing ideas about how this fight can be rewritten. but its pointless in mentioning it, if serious consideration to change isnt going to happen. not that i think its perfect, because i'm betting its not. but as a concept, the difficulty and challenge is there. as for the rest, i feel its a bit late (but better late than never). i just hope that i dont run into random disconnects that people still seem to be experiencing. i havent yet, so im hoping that continues after i patch tonight.
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[quote]So, the update just went live. Atheon can no longer be pushed off his platform. He'll also select people at random to be thrown across time. He's a real bastard, eh? I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns. I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?" I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy." At that point, I recalled all the times I stood and delivered the line "...the most challenging encounter we've ever created." It was hard to disagree. As a veteran of Cairo Station on Legendary in Halo, I had to admit that I had been carried through the Raid like luggage assigned to my clan. I did my own carrying later, but carrying had been done. This is an activity that was designed to be undertaken by a hardcore team that is ready and willing to adapt and improvise to changing battle conditions. Like the moment when the Templar shields random players, the Final Boss was supposed to be extremely dangerous. While we've been working on some of the other things for which you've been asking (i.e. better exotics, voice chat in matchmaking, more bounties), the designers who made the Raid have plugged the holes that you showed them. If you got in on the ground floor of this thing, we thank you. If you understand the mechanics for how to beat Atheon, it's still a thing you can teach your friends. If you're all up to the challenge, the Raid is waiting for you. Let's talk about it. Please sound off in this thread, and know that I'll be reading.[/quote] U know this update is pretty pointless to the majority of players who cant actually play raid do to no matchmaking or low activity of our friends, and forum doesnt really help with that or me cause every time i msg somebody about vog i get no answer, so how about u guys gonna start putting up some real updates. I personally never had any issues with servers or errors. This game is boring, i am thinking already to buy cod just to get away from this stupid game even tho i dont like cod. However ill give u guys credit i loved this game till i hit lvl 20, and i havent even completed the story..not even mars. Sick and tired of random rewards and non stop doing tiger strikes to -blam!-ing hope that ill get legendary.
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I would be fine with the patch, if ya know ya also buffed some of the exotics like bad juju fixed some bugs aswell. But just making atheon harder and fixing some server problems is the best this patch has to offer? really there are plenty of more things that need patching. Than the one thing that would make the community madder. Basically this patch as it stands is a big fu to the community for knocking off atheon lol. That's well my feelings of this patch anyways. Ya only patched one thing and it was the only thing that didn't need fixing. What about the invisible walls that block chest like on the moon. Surely that could use some fixing a quick fix is all that's needed. Or like i said make the bad juju and some other exotic better. Maybe fix the raid not auto teleporting us out, Or how the raid is so buggy and not teleporting people. Or the minotuars not getting knocked back when you do the ground slam at random timess. Why only fixed the thing the community said not to fix. I just gave you quiet a few things that would be great to patch. Maybe know you have some intel to tell the dev teams, so they have something to do rather than making the community mad. Seriously i seen a lot of games fail because of what's happening right now. And honestly your doing the same thing they were doing. Mr im doing everything right and nothing wrong. Please get ahold of your devs somehow. Maybe show them some other games that failed sevencore, prius, archeblade, gunz 2 etc. and maybe that will be a wake up call. You guy's are walking a dangerous path, and im sorry if i am coming off as rude but i feel we need to be strict we tried to be nice. People tend to remember bad more than good.
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Edited by Unholyconfesns: 10/28/2014 8:37:27 PMMy thoughts are that this game is now unplayable due to a monkey or weasel disconnect every 5-10 minutes... Yay you fixed a few zebras but unleashed the monkeys. Atheon though I think randomized teleports was a poorly thought out idea there are so many other ways to accomplish the same goal without doing that pretty sad some of the stuff that is rolled out to us seems like they have their own idea and will take criticism but beyond that it's a deaf ear to you Deej or us
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Thanks for taking the fun and teamwork out the raid. No really, thank you. I'll be ok dying multiple times until I get Advanced Warfare out of desperation to get away from this game. You should really say your welcome, it would mean a lot to me. [spoiler]unlike your game and how you "handle" the "problems"[/spoiler]
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Edited by woofsy: 10/28/2014 8:40:20 PMIf Bungie is listening to us then why are they ignoring our requests? It's kind of a slap in the face for the developer to hear the roaring masses and acknowledge verbally that they know what we want only to deny us. Right now you have raid groups that are uncertain if they even want to keep playing the game because the way Bungie is handling everything. There's tons of things Bungie could do to keep people playing, but the way it's going it's almost as if Bungie doesn't care about our their player base feedback. What we want for our raids is organization, teleporting random members into the stream creates chaos. How about fixing the glitches and bugs in the game that cause whipes in a raid? Or how about improving your game client's online stability?? How about giving us more content/strikes/missions to do, because right now you have a shell of a game that's lacking content. What a novel idea it would be to make clans actually useful, give us perks or rewards for working as a team. Give us meaningful rewards for actually completing high level content. With Bungie going down the road of only taking things away and not giving us any meaningful content or changes, people will leave.
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1 ReplyEdited by MDS Lord Zar: 10/28/2014 8:35:51 PMThis will go against the grain of most of the community so if you feel like reading and want to spam hateful responses go right ahead. You're oh so thoughtful replies will fall on deaf ears as most of you can barely make a coherent sentence without swearing or bashing the game completely. So read ahead if you want. This is mainly to Deej. First off I want to say I'm glad they fixed the issue with Atheon. Was it a bug? No. Doesn't mean that it should be exploited to reward so many for not even attempting to run the entire vault. What should be done is a checks and balance system. If you try and just jump to the last boss without even doing anything else you shouldn't be rewarded. Plain and simple. You should be required to go through the whole thing to get rewarded otherwise, like what has been happening for the last few weeks is people making threat after thread with Need a warlock to push Atheon off. It's pathetic. Is the raid hard? It can be for an unorganized or under weaponized squad. Should it be a set reward for beating it? This I don't honestly think should give X amount of anything for period. It's a raid, a game of chance with the rewards like the rest of the game. Have I been lucky and gotten my gear? Yes but still missing a lot of items I want from it. It should be that you play it two or three times and get everything you want from it. I'm just tired of reading about people saying the community voted no and they did it anyways. This is their game. They control what does and does not happen or gets changed. Just because you guys want to keep it the same doesn't mean they have to listen. Does that make them mean or not listen to the community? Not at all. They have a plan they are going to follow. If they listened to you guys everyone would be running around with full raid gear, pushing Atheon off and getting exotics and everything in the game within a week or two. Some things the community has brought up would be an awesome idea to add. One suggestion was horde mode. This could be done on any planet and be as random as the strikes. New maps don't need to be added just use sections of the maps, ones that are big enough to accommodate massive amounts of enemies. If this would be limited due to the 360 and PS3 then make it an exclusive to the X1 and PS4. Sometimes rewarding those who spent the money for the next gen is worth it. This game shouldn't be controlled by the limitations of a 8 year old system. These are some of the following ideas that could be done, and would bring a massive amount of content to the game with the minimal amount of new content. [b]Massive public events[/b]. Instead of these small five minute events that are quite frankly very boring and mundane. They don't flow with the game at all and don't really make any sense. They should encompass the area they are set in. That whole entire zone it is in should be active with enemies not just a group of seven at a time. We are after all trying to fight them back not smack a few peons around. [b]Roaming enemies[/b]. I honestly know this would never make it into the game as I would change it completely. Having them spawn and just go and sit at X spot and wait to be killed is basic at most. That was a very poor decision on your behalf. What better way to creat a vivid environment then have your enemies never in the same spot. They could spawn the same but after that have a few different patrol routes they could take. With very strong enemies in a patrol you could bush them along their route. Creates a nice atmosphere that is more intense instead of a duck hunt booth. [b]Marked Guardian[/b]. Randomly mark one guardian on the map as a rogue that has turned to the darkness. Kind of like the event to kill the enemy but with a guardian. No sparrows allowed but has to reach the checkpoint and get off the planet. Likewise shields would be added so it's not a slaughter fest. Would be very interesting to see and would be awesome content with nothing added honestly. Rewards can vary depending on how many guardians are killed or how far he reaches. [b]A BIGGER Vault[/b]. I don't know about you guys but my vault is almost completely full of weapons and gear I am saving. I'm a collector so why not let me collect what the game has to offer. Would take anything more then add more pages like your friends list. [b]Meaningful Gunsmith[/b]. As of now he is only useful for ammo synth. Make him more useful with all the weapons parts I have acquired. There are a log of standard weapons that are nice in their own way. Could rework them to give some abilities or make custom make them to add certain damage types. Not make them legendary just added small things here or there. Gives the community a lot to play with and a real reason to talk to the guy. [b]A Transmog system[/b]. This has been brought up numerous times and should be added in sometime. It does get old seeing the same armies on everyone and makes nothing unique in the game. Making things harder to get doesn't make things better. Everyone will wind up with the limited combinations that are out there for now. I love the look of some of the older armors. I honestly expected the best gear to look awesome but it's less appealing then some of the lvl ten stuff. A lot more things can be added in the tower as well. More interactive things around the tower, maybe some terminals to see your stats, or get info on current enemies. Basically instead if the grimoire cards being off the game. Lot has said put then in the menu but adding them in the tower would be more useful. Sell more shaders or let each piece of armor be customized. The shaders can still be used but allow more then one to used for like the gauntlets and helmet and such. Like I said before you guys can flame me and rant and rave all you want. It's doesn't bother me but just shows you lack maturity. If you do read these things Deej I'm not saying you guys have to do them at all, but they would add a lot more diversity to a very fun game. Most can be done without making new models or anything. Just be a little creative with your coding. Thank you for reading. Edited for typos.
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Although this will be lost in the sea of responses. DeeJ I think you need to go back to your designers and let them know that the vast majority of the community is not happy with the change they made to Atheon regarding the random teleport. Adding chaos into an orderly fight that requires perfect execution of each role is not the correct call to make. It alienates new players and dissuades them from wanting to attempt this fight as the learning curve is now just too high. It breaks the ability for random groups of players to form and attempt to take the fight on, thus creating a raid team that will continue to meet up and push into hard mode. Some people do not have the luxury of having a huge group of players on their friends list to run VoG on a regular basis and must rely on these random groups to do VoG . A team of randoms will not want to spend 6+ hours for each person to attempt to learn each role. Difficulty is one thing, but this is short sighted and not the right design decision to make to incentivize people to try VoG. You needed to focus on the numerous other broken aspects that plague the Atheon fight first and make it work butter smooth. Only then should this change have been included in hard mode only. The one other thing that should be mentioned is that the Atheon fight should not immediately start and should be activated as people now need more time to explain each position of the fight in better detail.
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I have one concern.... Stop giving us doubles of the loot we alrdy have.... I have 5 aspect fo glass now. Y u do Dis to me
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Oh please, quit griping and adjust your strategy. This is not game breaking and it doesn't kill strategy. Maybe your old way doesn't work, adopt a new one. Might I suggest mine? Split your group into 3 categories Top Tier: 2 most proficient relic holders. All top tier members immediately attempt to pick up the relic when teleported. Who gets it doesn't matter b/c this group is solid relic players only. 2nd Tier: 2 players that can manage the relic if need be. 2nd tier players attempt to pick up the relic 1 second after teleport. This gives top tier time to pick it up but doesn't waste time figuring out if your top tier guys are with you or still outside. 3rd Tier: 2 players will not need to ever pick up the relic. These can be people with oracle damaging guns or gunslinger supers or whatever. Since 3 are teleported there will always be at least one member from one of the higher tiers. 3rd tier players can immediately focus on the adds and get set up for oracles. You can adjust the numbers to have 1 top & 3 2nds, or 3 tops and 1 second, or even 4 tops depending on your group. If you want, put all 6 in the top tier. You either always immediately pick it up, always pick it up after 1 second, or don't touch it ever. Still easy, still strategy, please stop crying.
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1 ReplyI'm one of the wierdo's that likes the change, it makes not having a matchmaking system make more sense, but I do think those who beat the hard mode should get a matchmaking system. Idk, just spit balling here.
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Quit this -blam!-ing piece of shit game. Won't touch another Bungie project again. Sell out cock suckers
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Look if you are going to change the raid mechanics to make it harder even if arbitrary fine. If you are going to continue to fumble around with events and things while you try to figure out what people like without breaking the mechanics again fine. If you are going to nerf weapons wildly in an attempt to balance pvp again fine. These are normal things for mmos/ competitive games you are getting a feel for everything and Bungie you have never done anything like this its ok to mess up and get better from it. The thing I really really can't stand is stuff that is just plain insulting shipping the game with DLC? really. Doing this PR thing with DeeJ having him just say nothing and talk in a condescending tone basically like we are children. I can't stand that, if you are going to do something man up and do it don't tell us its a bug or a fix call it like it is and say you are changing the mechanics because you felt it was easy. Fix the vaults wipe causing bugs while you are hot fixing as well. I don't know how many times the gate team tries to run though and then only two people walk out because they got sent to their own little world, only two people getting teleported when the timesteam opens, Atheon walking on air to the center platform and instant killing everyone. What the hell is that? You don't fix the things that actually make the raid last longer, but do "fix" the thing that really wasn't even a problem? Are you all trying to make the game last longer so that we can still be trying when the DLC comes? (that we already have thanks for that I love buying things twice) This just makes be mad fess up that you are a bit out of your zone take the hits make the fixes that need to be fixed and the changes that you feel you need to make and be done with it you and the community will be better for it. (and maybe I will by that DLC I have on my disc that should be nice)
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One there is no easy raid and two you just fail at your job pass the torch please I feel an inexperienced monkey can give better progress than you Sir
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Well, my group and I are getting ready to train people. We feel everyone is comfortable with the different portions of our strategy. Now we're going to give members of our group to practice with the relic shield. That way, everyone can do the jobs required of Home Defense, and the Time Travelers portion. DeeJ, I know your job is hard and that its a relatively unforgiving and unappreciative community. Just send me a Hard Light my way for all the love I send ya. The nightfall and raids have been screwing me over lately. I'll even include a marketing campaign to give you better appeal in the forums ;P
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Why is everything about this game all about randomness? Having a strategy on bosses is what people are supposed to figure out, now everything is just random as hell. That's not making things harder, its just making things annoying. In no way was that a bug so I don't know why you're saying it was. It just seems to me you don't want people to play the game they want to. Funny that too, remember that write up you did about Streamer house the other week, these are the same guys that run solo nightfalls and invite sub's when the boss is nearly dead for an easy clear. (Basically people are paying 5 dollars for a clear, because their sub's get priority) Is this how Bungie intended the game to be played?
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3 RepliesPushing atheon off was awful, I hated that. I always wanted to fight him but my raid group always just wants to get it down quickly, so I'm ok with that. But the -blam!-ing random choosing? -blam!-ing awful. Your taking out almost ALL staretgy on atheon! Isn't strategy what raids are usually about? I ALWAYS a do oracles, because I'm a hunter, and golden gun wrecks the oracles! To me that's a solid strategy. Now you take that away and its not fun anymore! My raid group and I sit outside each section of the raid discussing strategy, ya know what's gonna happen now? We sit outside atheon and say "well good luck! Hope ya get what ya want!" The rest of the raid is very strategic, so why make the last boss not? Ugh thanks guys. You're really making this game unfun.
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I feel like they could make the rewards a little less random for making the fight a hell of a lot harder.
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Honestly the banter you provided us is quite unsettling. Again this reminds me of the Mass Effect 3 fiasco a few years back. When looking at the small snippet of your conversation with the raid team it brings back memories of how we have to play the game within a certain frame. It shows me as the gamer that my opinion and viewpoints do not matter to your raid team. I am unsure as to whether or not your game will succeed going forward with a disconnect like that. With that in mind yes the game sold well, plenty of players, myself included, play regularly, and it is quite fun. My argument is that taking into example the raid teams strong resistance to change the raid, even at the suggestion of a fellow employee and gamer; I wonder what other teams of developers working on Destiny are willing to change or fix. Again I am looking at just the raid here, we are supposedly getting some good features in the distant future and that speaks volumes as well. Just to me though this small conversation is a warning of things to come for the Destiny IP.
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2 RepliesOverall, I like the idea. I think something that would be a little helpful be indicators that who is marked to get tossed through the space time continuum prior to getting tossed. That allows the team to confirm who's where quickly
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DeeJ, basically what I got from your post is that yes, we were heard, yes you voiced our opinions, concerns and our thoughts.. And someone just said for you to return to your desk. If they don't care about what you have to say, then they don't care about what we have to say. If they don't care about what we have to say, then how can Destiny become anything more than it is today? How can it improve if feedback, while asked for, is simply ignored? I play WoW. I've played it for 8 years. The only game I've EVER loved as much as WoW was Mass Effect. I put more than 900 hours into the series. I loved the game and the story and the characters SO much, that on the final mission in ME3 I ended up deleting every bit of ME from my console solely because I contributed to the death of my favorite character, Garrus. I started over from game one at that exact moment. I want Destiny to be successful, I honestly do. I had hoped that it could compete with games like WoW and Mass Effect. Honestly, I believe there is time to save this game. To do so, the developers are going to have to start listening to us. We want to help you build a better game. If we didn't - or if we didn't care, we would not take the time to voice ourselves or critique the game. If we didn't care, we'd simply shut our mouths, play it for what it is, and then we'd sell it back or put it on the shelf when something better comes around. Listen to us. We're gamers. Real gamers. This is our passion. We will help you build a better game. Do not ignore us.
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How is it so hard to buff a few exotics that the community have been asking for since week 1,but as soon as it comes to people cheesing there way to rewards it's fixed ASAP.this is all down to the fact that you don't want all your player base getting the best stuff too fast so they won't get bored and leave,same as your gambling system.I ain't got a problem with beating atheon on hard the correct way but atheon ain't the problem it's your total ignorance towards the community .your fixing the things that will keep people grinding,you nerf things to keep pvp going while neglecting your pve community.why don't you hold polls on things your gonna do if (YOUR LISTENING TO THE PLAYERS).oh yeah latest update increases stability lol I can't even get into a game for 5 mins
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Hardest part of the raid is keeping people from disconnecting.....
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This is utterly appalling. I have until this point enjoyed the game but have now reached the level where only doing the raid is going to benefit me in game. The developers seem intent on making this a game where by you must sit down and dedicate 4 hrs minimum uninterrupted of your life in order to get anywhere. Some of us have other pulls on our time and simply cannot devote that sort of time to a video game especially when you need 6 people to do this particular part of the game added to the fact that with the awful RNG in this game you could find yourself stuck doing the raid countless times before you have all the bits from it. Now some of you will argue that if that is the case then this simply isn't the game for you. I feel that argument is a little unfair and exclusive. In terms of actually being able to get into the raid I will say I have many friends IRL but we don't all like or play the same game(or the same system for that matter) so getting a group together to do the raid is either not going to happen or simply a mathematical impossibility. Further to that it was hard enough getting a group of randoms through the forums to agree to take a newbie on before the patch let alone now after the changes. For me personally this game was a complete departure from the type of game I would normally play (I seem to remember reading at some point that this was a goal of bungie with this game?) and as I said I was enjoying it. That said I now find myself thinking I have lost all interest in playing it as it has become a chore and I will most likely either cut down the time I spend on it or will completely let it go and go back to the type of game I usually play.
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I think the change won't matter. Most of the people I've played with are very skilled and very good at helping. When I first started the vog I would screw up and cause a wipe I would feel like shit because we would have to start all over. But for the most part every one helped me out and I got better. As long as three people have used the relic before it will be fine. For people who have never played before in the vog should watch YouTube a bit to know what to expect
