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Edited by DeeJ:
10/28/2014 3:38:45 PM
3117
Thoughts and Opinions about Atheon's Revenge.
So, the update just went live. Atheon can no longer be pushed off his platform. He'll also select people at random to be thrown across time. He's a real bastard, eh?
I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns.
I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?"
I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy."
At that point, I recalled all the times I stood and delivered the line "...the most challenging encounter we've ever created." It was hard to disagree. As a veteran of Cairo Station on Legendary in Halo, I had to admit that I had been carried through the Raid like luggage assigned to my clan. I did my own carrying later, but carrying had been done.
This is an activity that was designed to be undertaken by a hardcore team that is ready and willing to adapt and improvise to changing battle conditions. Like the moment when the Templar shields random players, the Final Boss was supposed to be extremely dangerous. While we've been working on some of the other things for which you've been asking (i.e. better exotics, voice chat in matchmaking, more bounties), the designers who made the Raid have plugged the holes that you showed them.
If you got in on the ground floor of this thing, we thank you. If you understand the mechanics for how to beat Atheon, it's still a thing you can teach your friends. If you're all up to the challenge, the Raid is waiting for you.
Let's talk about it. Please sound off in this thread, and know that I'll be reading.
English
#Destiny
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1 ReplyWTF, over. Two weeks of working on this and I get booted for Monkey after five minutes?! It was working better before.
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Wait so basically you heard us but you don't give a dam forgive me if I'm wrong but that's what I'm reading here the raids not supposed to be easy? Its not easy hell half your player base can't get in its not hard but its an fps how hard can it get even halo on legendary isn't overly hard the 8th time though its gets easier the players don't like the change deej what's it matter if that's not the intention that's how it was set up and it wasn't broke why the hell did you fix it that's the easiest way to ruin things
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Honestly, altering the raid that significantly at this stage only punishes those who haven't already completed it. Really, fixing the exploits should have been the only change. Take the rest of the data and feedback to heart for the NEXT raid you create. I sympathize with game developers, I know it's a hard gig... but how the heck did VoG get pushed out the door as is? Is there any plans to take away illegitimately gained gear?
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Bring the pain Deej! Inject it into my veins!!!
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Well, i have to say that the decision to make random players teleport wad one of the most frustrating changes to a well balanced team. Sure the Atheon glitch was understandable but, for some reason this feels like it defeats the purpose of a game. A game is supposed to be chanllenging and fun, and with no way for us to get better players to play with...because of no real chat options.....we are all trying to play with our friends, and not every player is as skilled as the next one, but if Destiny is about community as well, no one will want to play with the learning or inexperienced players again. This creates a sense of suckiness, because I gotta tell your good friend that sorry but he isnt good enough. I could go on, but I think I made my point, I dont agree with the change.
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[quote]I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns. I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?" I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy."[/quote] So what you're saying is the Devs are telling you and their players to f*ck off? lovely. Back when the change was announced I said I would pull my preorder for [i]The Dark Below[/i] if this change went live. I'm on my way to Gamestop after this to transfer the money over to my Dragon Age Inquisition, gonna upgrade to collectors edition. I've been a hardcore WoW raider from Vanilla to Wrath and when it comes to the Vault I'm a renaissance man myself. But this change is going to close VoG off to a lot of newcomers. DeeJ if you read this I want you to take this quote to the devs [i]"What was changed is called artificial difficulty, in other words making something harder in a stupid way. An example of Artificial difficulty, when playing an RTS. When bumping up the Ai difficulty the AI gets more resources and builds faster than you. The AI didn't get smarter they just gained brute force."[/i] So what is the point of a CM if Bungie doesn't listen? DeeJ you're a pretty cool guy and I appreciate the work you do for us. However I suggest you quit your job, Bungie clearly doesn't appreciate you as much as we do. I would suggest going to Blizzard and seeing if they need someone with your talents, Activision owns them too. According to Josh Allen AKA Lore, the CM for WoW Blizzard pays well and is a pretty good employer. I'm also pretty sure they won't tell you to go f*ck yourself when you bring them community feedback like Bungie just did.
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fix the rewards...I realize its RNG, but I don't need chatterwhite, a ship and Visions of Confluence everytime I complete the raid on each of my characters.
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So you bumbs are sour your raid was easy and so you fix it before anything else Heres a question, does it -blam!-ing end? Btw still getting disconnects, why do you guys even try
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Completing the raid will certainly have an added challenge now, but only until the raid groups that currently run it 'easily' take the adjustments and roll with them no problem. I see a problem happening with new raiders. Learning the raid is difficult enough when you understand the mechanics and have roles to fulfill. Adding this element of randomness means that players will be attempting to overcome a new set of obstacles each attempt. I agree with an earlier post that perhaps the hard raid mode should be getting this randomized element. Leave the normal raid alone for people to learn and understand the mechanics. Just my two cents. I appreciate the job you have to do DeeJ. It can't be easy. Keep it up man.
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My body is ready... I can respect the wish to tune the raid to increase its difficulty. Teleporting random players instead of a relic team is one viable way to do that. I look forward to helping my fireteam adapt to it. What's not plausible is that the previous mechanic of teleporting the furthest players from Aetheon was a bug to be "fixed". There was logic there. It was a mechanic. I have a couple guesses as to why the change was made... It might have been the easiest way to solve the 2 or 4 person teleports that can cause a frustrating, glitch-induced wipe (if these disappear I think we'll have that answer). The other possibility is simply to extend the challenge-life of VoG to close the gap until the first DLC pack. In either case, the justification is thin. Any game that has teamwork/party mechanics - hell, any THING that has teamwork (soccer, football, USMC) - has specialists with given roles. Imagine how effective our Navy would be if every member of the flight crew had to be a member of the tailhook club. Reducing our ability to assign roles and develop strategy only diminishes the cohesion, and effectiveness, of a team. Requiring a group of 6 generalists instead of a group of 6 specialists is never a compelling mechanic and I hope it will not be relied upon in the future. If anything I would really like to see a more differentiated role for Titan, Warlock, and Hunter. As it is the differences boil down to jump mechanics and are overshadowed by weapon effectiveness. I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed playing your game and continue to trust your development decisions. The mechanics are superb. The visuals are incredible. I hope the main driving force remains the goal of making the best game possible. Don't dumb it down. Don't Call of Destiny it. Don't call mechanics changes "Fixed Issues".
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Is his revenge the monkey disconnection error that's keeping a lot of the community from playing for more than fifteen minutes without getting kicked? If so then congrats devs, it is much harder. What's the words I'm looking for? Epic fail!
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1 ReplyEdited by mrWLSN: 10/28/2014 10:31:50 PMI think the main issue with most of these updates stems from the lack of transparency with what you are trying to address with changes and the amount of contradiction in statements from the past to the changes for the present. Things like 'there's more than one way to play' which basically turns in to 'you're not playing the way we intended' or the entire spiel about the raid being about teamwork, strategising, and assigning roles which turns in to randomness and time wasting. And then there's changes like the Shrine of Oryx 'decrease in difficulty' when we all know it was to limit glimmer farming. Just tell us what we're doing wrong outright so we know. I'm a designer, so I know what it's like to get precious about the way I intend things to look versus how a client wants things to look. I can empathise with your designers/devs. I'll always believe my way is better, just like they probably believe about this - that's just how being invested in your own creativity works. Maybe it sometimes is better, but it also sometimes isn't. Sometimes it does a world of good to step back and think about things and the thoughts of outside sources rather than just defending your own design. You claim that there has been discussion, and I hope that is true. People appreciate the idea of working as a team and assigning roles. You've reduced the future completion rate by getting rid of the cheese method since so many completions seem to just be people save sharing Atheon and cheesing (including buying those saves). The raid is still hard for most players, especially on hard mode. There's so much that can go wrong and very few things that seem to go right. Eliminating one of the few instances of teamwork and role assignment for the sake of randomness just feels like pointless artificial difficulty buffing. At least put in some sort of role assignment by adding a [b]Marked for Teleportation[/b] status effect so people can choose who picks up the relic before it turns in to a mess of "I'm here," "I'm here," "Me too!" "Who's picking it up?!" "I'm going blind!" "Cleanse isn't up yet!" You have succumbed to the oracles. The outcry about the teleporting change was pretty large, and I appreciate how you have listening to the vocal majority in the past and implemented some good changes (the Atheon fix to prevent cheesing is great), but I honestly feel like the most recent outcry for this has fallen on deaf ears. People will eventually shut up. We'll adapt to changes and learn new ways to do things. However, each time you [i]seemingly[/i] treat us like we don't matter, a little respect dies with it.
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Dude who cares at this point, AW and GTA will both be here within the next 2 weeks so I will be moving on. Your game was a epic grindfest and mind numbing shit time and time again......Yea I know I logged quite a bit of play time but if ya can't beat em you have to join em thank god other games are on the way.
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If you are not fixing this -blam!-ING ERRORS at least half of the community will leave destiny tomorrow. I dont blame DeeJ, because he cant do anything against it, but is everyone of Bungie at home sipping tea or what? Nobody carea about this errors. Tomorrow or in the next hours this should be fixed, otherwise me and I think the most gamers will quit Destiny.
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DeeJ, please respond or acknowledge this topic. What about the thorn and bad juju buff? I believe it's been about 3 weeks, and no update. At least give us a ball park estimate? A week? 2 weeks? Thanks.
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Looking for experienced players only every player must know how to use relic without dieing, if you die with the relic you will be kicked instantly. And no hunters
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5 RepliesEdited by Weesil xD: 10/28/2014 10:06:58 PMSomething that I still fail to comprehend is that, why are "bugs" that don't need "fixed" being "fixed"? I understand that Atheon being pushed off is cheap...but it's effective. That wouldn't be a bug, that would be called a strategy. Cheap strategy? Yes. Does it work? Yes. That would be like saying a Preemptive strike isn't right and should never happen. When you say the raid is suppose to be hard..no, it's not hard. It's rather easy now actually. Even on Hard Mode, it's still easy, at least for me. You should never punish someone that's good at something just because they're good and know what they're doing. Because now, with the random teleporting, the first-time raiders will have no idea what to do when they get to Atheon. It's two-sided. A balance, something you wish to achieve but are failing at. That's just my opinion..it's there. Agree or disagree that's your choice.
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I'm sorry deej but that's a cop out plain and simple. Your devs know they don't have enough content to last until Dec when the dlc comes out. Too many players already have reached the max lvl and are getting tired of grinding for nothing. The whole problem got compounded when people found a way to cheese atheon as well. So in a misplaced attempt to slow player progress and buy you some time until the dlc you changed the entire encounter and said you were fixing a bug. That's bull plain and simple. We all see right through that. Sure people will find a way to adapt and beat the encounter as it is now but it doesn't change the fact that your company did this for one reason alone. And that was to put the brakes on the entire community and buy time. That's also why you haven't made any mention whatsoever of fixing the bugs in the raid let alone an attempt to fix them. You will keep the bugs there because they artificially increase the difficulty of your raid. However, like I said we will adapt and persevere. In fact all you have done is hurt the players who haven't done the raid yet. Experienced teams will still beat it no problem but they will be less patient to incorporate unproven comrades for the journey. I'm not gonna sit here and say I won't play the game anymore but I think this last patch is one of the most disgusting and blatant attempts I have ever seen from a company to cover up their shortcomings. Sorry for the rant but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, guess what? Its an effing duck!
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More interested in a eta for those exotic buffs.
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[quote]I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns. I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?" I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy."[/quote] So essentially the developers don't care what the community at-large wants, they're going to do it their way regardless. Listen this isn't us trying to make the raid easier, this is us telling you that the new mechanic isn't as fun or strategic. Teleporting the players farthest away was a FUN mechanic and actually made the encounter last longer as those people had to stop shooting seconds before Time's Vengeance was up to get into position. If the community is so easily brushed aside on an issue as simple as this, I can't imagine you'll ever take any of our opinions into consideration. It sounds like your developers are arrogant and stubborn -- if they're too proud to budge on their "vision", then I'm definitely done with this game. Make us feel like our voices matter.
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Let me get this straight: Because gear rewards are not guaranteed in the VoG not everyone is going to have the equipment to handle every situation in their next play through. Some people are going to have Anti Praetorian gear, some are going to have Anti Oracle weapons, and some are gonna have neither -- just the exotic/legendary they got else where. Yet you expect them to be able to fill every role in the VoG even if they are not equipped for that role? Sorry, I just can't grasp that logic. When I say "You", I don't mean you specifically DeeJ, but Bungie as a whole. Look, I see what Bugie is trying to do. They don't want people to be carried through the Raid. But you know, if we where guaranteed a VoG weapon or armor I think people would be better equipped to carry their own weight. Not saying everyone should get a Mythoclast but if you manage sneak through the labrynth perfectly or prevent any Vex from taking a sync plate you should be guaranteed something. Even Perfect Raiding should net you a reward other than an Achievement.
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2 Replies#BoycottBungie
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Has the raid team ever played mmo raids? Every player has roles to perform not every player doing random things based on random events. How often do you see dps classes in wow tanking a raid boss? Never because they do their assigned role which is dps. Make the raid harder if you want i won't complain but please do it through mechanics within the raid that we need to learn not random assignment of roles which is just a cluster -blam!- and not fun. The raid is incredibly simplistic as of now and the only difficulty is staying connected and a mechanic based solely on luck instead of skill.
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My favorite part is when Deej compares the Templar shielding random people to Atheon teleporting 3 random players to a whole new area with new mechanics and says good look.
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Edited by xCUBBYxxxBEARx: 10/28/2014 10:27:17 PMAll we get is negative changes in this game... When will the good stuff be added?? Master Chief is calling me to his "Collection". :P We all know we purchased destiny because of Bungie. We will now just switch on over to what they originally created and it will take us away from this tragedy.
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[quote]So, the update just went live. Atheon can no longer be pushed off his platform. He'll also select people at random to be thrown across time. He's a real bastard, eh? I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns. I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?" I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy." At that point, I recalled all the times I stood and delivered the line "...the most challenging encounter we've ever created." It was hard to disagree. As a veteran of Cairo Station on Legendary in Halo, I had to admit that I had been carried through the Raid like luggage assigned to my clan. I did my own carrying later, but carrying had been done. This is an activity that was designed to be undertaken by a hardcore team that is ready and willing to adapt and improvise to changing battle conditions. Like the moment when the Templar shields random players, the Final Boss was supposed to be extremely dangerous. While we've been working on some of the other things for which you've been asking (i.e. better exotics, voice chat in matchmaking, more bounties), the designers who made the Raid have plugged the holes that you showed them. If you got in on the ground floor of this thing, we thank you. If you understand the mechanics for how to beat Atheon, it's still a thing you can teach your friends. If you're all up to the challenge, the Raid is waiting for you. Let's talk about it. Please sound off in this thread, and know that I'll be reading.[/quote] Bungie is stupid as hell....this is why, i love the vog, but im getting tired if having to get like the 5 BEST players just to do it... this random picking makes it so u have to have everyone on it for the fights, and i have tons of friends but most i cant rely on for that skill... idgaf about the pushing patch, but where is it for the templar? I wanted that patch......if there was somthing skill lvl between nightfall and this i wudnt mind but u got this huge wall in front of ur endgame content bungie and its stupid as hell.
