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Edited by DeeJ:
10/28/2014 3:38:45 PM
3117
Thoughts and Opinions about Atheon's Revenge.
So, the update just went live. Atheon can no longer be pushed off his platform. He'll also select people at random to be thrown across time. He's a real bastard, eh?
I talked a lot to the developers about your opinions on the matter. You don't want to be selected at random. You want to choose who gets to fetch the Relic under fire from those nasty Oracles. I spoke on your behalf. Your voice was heard. We discussed your concerns.
I even said "Why not just change Hard Mode and leave Easy Mode alone?"
I was told "The Raid is never supposed to be easy."
At that point, I recalled all the times I stood and delivered the line "...the most challenging encounter we've ever created." It was hard to disagree. As a veteran of Cairo Station on Legendary in Halo, I had to admit that I had been carried through the Raid like luggage assigned to my clan. I did my own carrying later, but carrying had been done.
This is an activity that was designed to be undertaken by a hardcore team that is ready and willing to adapt and improvise to changing battle conditions. Like the moment when the Templar shields random players, the Final Boss was supposed to be extremely dangerous. While we've been working on some of the other things for which you've been asking (i.e. better exotics, voice chat in matchmaking, more bounties), the designers who made the Raid have plugged the holes that you showed them.
If you got in on the ground floor of this thing, we thank you. If you understand the mechanics for how to beat Atheon, it's still a thing you can teach your friends. If you're all up to the challenge, the Raid is waiting for you.
Let's talk about it. Please sound off in this thread, and know that I'll be reading.
English
#Destiny
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My problem with this random, luck-based change is that the sound in the game makes it difficult to hear one another half the time, and with a 3-second window at most to decide who picks up the relic EVERY time you get ported, things are going to get old REALLY fast, especially for someone like me who has 2 jobs and a family. My play time is limited. I CAN'T be a part of a hardcore clan. I just want to be able to successfully do the raid weekly so I can take my chance at getting some decent loot (and most likely get ascendant material). Don't think I want it easy, I want my competency put to the test, but I don't want to have to carry 5 new people each time. I am limited to finding a group on destinylfg and I just can't foresee the relic grab being anything than a cause of 5+ wipes on Atheon. If you're going to pull this artificial difficulty bs, then put the relic in someone's hands automatically, that way someone can say [X has the relic], or hell, have the game display that message as it happens. That will halt much of the complaining since we see what you want us to do. You want us each to have an androgynous jack-of-all trades load out at all times rather than specifically planning on a certain role. Everyone will gear similarly and will have to do everything and that way it will rub smoothly. If you could do that, it would be awesome. Oh, and fix the actual game-breaking bugs that were more of a problem in the Atheon fight to begin with: 2 or 4 people teleported , Minotaur health starting over, not getting ported when you go through the portal, oracle killing you despite being killed, and for the love of God if I do the raid for a 6th time getting only ascendant materials and no raid gear I might actually scream, but that's my own problem I guess. . .
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In order to receive the raid helmet/Vex Mytho, players should be required to have passed every checkpoint--maybe not in order, but they need to complete them all. The random teleports help prevent this, but it still not not address the root of the problem. Noobs have been jumping in on teams with a checkpoint at Atheon. Now it will be harder to complete, yet they still have bypassed all other raid events.
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My Fireteam and I are so ready to tackle this new mechanic =)
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3 RepliesWe never did the push off method on our team and we planned ahead for 4 people learning relic(meaning no one who knows what they're doing will ever need to pick it up) this won't affect those raiders who actually raid properly.
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19 RepliesMatchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking Matchmaking 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How do you beat it then?
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Just keep in mind, games are ment to be played for fun.If it's not fun, people will find other ventures that are.
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I welcome the baby bumpers, more people will actually kill him now. Not like it was extremely hard before this. My problem is with the random teleporting and how those developers say it was a "glitch" The game/raid has been out for a while now, and then this was said to be a "bug" in his code after COUNTLESS teams worked on strategy and then it was addressed. It doesn't bug me too much, my team and I will adapt. My point is, it was failed communication. Why didn't anyone say after the 100th team that tried this strategy say "Well this is what he is doing, but this is what we had intended him to do" not just some bogus patch to "fix a glitch" Remember the problem with coding, once one bug is patched 3 more pop up in its place. So hopefully the hot fix is a good one and it doesn't screw up other mechanics. Personally I give it until next reset until others find a bug in the code and then abuse it. I'll probably be in that group of people that abuse it as well for the fact of "You should have left well enough alone" For example.. The Templar fight Time will tell, we'll see how it works out
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Edited by YES I KILLED U: 10/28/2014 4:31:57 PMRandom teleporting is just the raid designers butthurt little baby tantrum because the raid wasn't as hard as they thought it would be in its original design. The teleporting was working as intended or we would have heard at least a whisper saying otherwise far sooner. Fix the Atheon push, I don't care but before you go "fixing" other things how about the exotic buffs we were promised. Also how about you make the rest of the fight function like it should before "fixing" non game breaking things. Get the priorities straight, because let's be honest pushing Atheon hurts no one but not teleporting you when you go through a portal or only taking two people ect. are game breaking and force a wipe usually. Make the game playable before you change the way it works.
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1 ReplyI don't care about the patch, but it seems like all the stuff people didn't want but none that they did (exotic buffs, voice, actual vault bug removal like random teleport quantities, atheon shoots through shield, and random portal failures). In short, it feels like master rahool is at it again. Decrypted the legendary hotfix into uncommon boots.
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I am glad this was finally implemented. The idea of a raid being easy, for any reason, was silly. It was hard the first time we've gone through and taught us to change up our tactics, learn new methods to conquer it. But these... exploitations took the fun out of it. It was sit still, let the warlock do all the work an get items. No more. These Raids will test us, not bore us. Sadly they do still feel like a chore. No one wants to gain materials, as nice as they are. We want weapons, armors and nothing we already have.
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Anything that removes exploiting like pushing off is good to be removed... Anything that impacts teamwork / strategy is less good, I personally am less likely to take lower skill players into the Raid now to give them their first experience or help them, as it becomes a ballache when you spend several hours dying (wipes or dooms) because of someones mistake over and over... Your answer is not to take them in I guess or keep wasting time (I spent many hours helping players last week, not again), my answer is I will be more ruthless and not help a wide range of players any more... The random teleporting stuff matters not to me I can do all parts of the raid, but some players need to be given roles to be able to do something constructive... The compounding factor is the joke drops I get, I'm not going to waste time helping others (taking longer) and still get screwed by the rnd nature of drops...bring on the IB or raiding with only trusted players...or something else...
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Thanks Deej for listening to our feedback. I am apprehensive about the random teleport. I've participated in 5 raids, finished 2 of those, and for the 1st 4 I never even touched the relic. Our experienced guardians always did. It seemed to make sense, pick your strength, stick with it, get good gear, and I became very good at taking down Supplicants. But on the 5th raid last week we had no one who was great with the relic, so someone had the good idea that during the Templar we should all try it out - turns out I picked it up pretty quick. So I'm not going to judge random teleporting until I see it in action, it sounds like it could be a death sentence for those who want to see the Vault so they can see the whole game (and not because they are hard core guardians) but with the proper void damage guns and practice, I'm hoping it in fact gives some of us a chance to see the future and past worlds rather than being relegated to "door man" all the time. Sure I'm doing my part but it'd be interesting to see all the parts of the raid. I expect that might be your point.
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I'm excited for the challenge! It got really easy this will be much more communication. I am approving.
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Edited by Yu Tai Mai Shu: 10/28/2014 4:26:04 PMSo did the designers go ahead and allow matchmaking for the raid? It's obvious they don't really want people to come up with strategies for these fights. The strategy now is "everybody know what to do about every facet of the fight", which is something that a group of random people from matchmaking can accomplish.
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I wrote a lengthy and (I thought) eloquent explanation as to why this is a terrible idea, but because some boneheaded designer thought having a button that DELETES YOUR ENTIRE DRAFTED COMMENT as the right-most button below the form was a good idea, it now resides only in the ether. Two things: 1. Confirm before destructive actions. This is UX 101. 2. The RNG teleportation is gamer-hostile, time-challenging rather than skill-challenging nonsense, clearly not intended to test your ability so much as your patience at playing (and failing) whilst others learn mechanics. You can do better than this on both counts, Bungie.
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Edited by CruelCodex: 10/28/2014 4:25:53 PMThank you DEEJ and dev team, I have been waiting for this update since it was announced! I look forward to wiping for hours learning the whole fight! Not being sarcastic I welcome this new lvl of difficulty.
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I personally think it's good for random as it will make people better at the game as a whole. People will understand what other people are doing inside and out. I think it's good as long as u play with a good team then no issue.
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1 ReplyI'd like to sign a petition to allow us to go back to how it was when Atheon teleported the three furthest players rather then three random players. That is a strategy not an exploit nor is it a glitch/bug, #wewantfreedom #hallelujah.
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It seems you guys go out of your way to make the game worse. For example, I was expecting the ar nerf, but not the scout buff, just how I understand fixing the push, but making his teleports random discourages me to play on hard now, because there is only a handful of good relic holders I know that can handle it. It's frustrating that you guys make us learn the game one way, then make one change and throw everyone of balance. I guess that's the only way you're going to get people to keep playing for 10 years.
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I think that, because the Raid is more challenging, rewards should be just a [b]smidgen[/b] more easier to get, at least in regards to Raid gear. That way it'll be just a [b]smidgen[/b] easier to get to 30 to help out fellow Guardians.
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Edited by Pheenixm: 10/28/2014 4:30:52 PMHow about providing us a practice mode so we can at least teach people the mechanics without having to spend hours getting wiped? Otherwise, there will be no new blood in the raid, because no one will want to spend 3 hours teaching noobs how to use the relic. If you guys don't actually start listening to us, I will not be returning come the new Halo.
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I don't mind the change. I've done every role in the raid and adapt easily. However I see how this will be somewhat troublesome in my situation. You see we have a static raid 6 people semi hardcore and these guys are pretty used to fps. But we always take 2-4 other friends for hard mode throughout the week after we finish it with our static. And those people have a hard time learning new roles. They will learn of course but it will be time consuming. And I can see how this will discourage people to help others through the raid. If before the patch we cleared the raid at least 3-4 times a week now it will be limited to 2 (and probably just with the static group of people, one time with mains and one time with alts) I like helping my other friends gear up and get experience in the raid but not everyone in my group agrees. If people will start to refuse helping others to clear the raid because those others haven't played fps games a lot and cannot spend hours and hours to improve their gameplay because they have families, jobs etc. I can see how this will encourage them to stop playing. And it will be a shame because I enjoy playing with my friends. I'm glad that you are fixing the bugs and exploits (we refused to push Aethon off the platform because it was cheap and unworthy) but you also took away the "comfort zone" where we could take 1-2 random friends and they could do their role well and not feel like he/they is pulling us down because of lack of experience or maybe panic and whiping us. P.s. Thank you for fixing Aethion exploit and I can't wait to see the exotic weapons fix patch. Excited to see what will become of bad juju and thorn.
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3 RepliesI do agree about the whole push-off thing needing to be fixed, it was becoming quite annoying to join games or to even start them only to have 2-3 people go "Let's just push him off". I was firmly against that from the get go, and I actually promoted doing it normally, even teaching new people how to do it normally, IE: How to use the relic, how to do good on the outside, callouts, etc. As for the random selection, that's a big no-no. While I do agree that the raid is supposed to be challenging, and you're supposed to learn the mechanics of the raid to establish good strategy and teamwork, the implementation of randomly selecting the groups, and then changing them every single time breaks the concept of the raid being "strategic" or even "team-based" anymore, if anything, this update has just locked the door for about 90% of the players who were on the raid earlier as nobody is going to want players who cannot use the relic on their teams now. I also have to disagree about the comparison you made between Detainment and Random Selection, that's understandable because it's not really a "major" effect on the outcome of the fight, where-as selecting the two teams for you, is very deterministic. Need a better example to prove the point, I'll give you one here. Let's assume we have a team of 6, classes don't matter, and it consists of two 26's, two 27's, a 28, and a 30. Common sense in the old system would tell you to hand the relic to the level 30 so they could handle the Praetorian on the Right side of the portal, while the 28 and the 27 would kill oracles. You leave the lower levels on the outside and give them the instruction of stay on the platform or die. Sure you'll die a few times until the team adapts to the mechanics, but eventually you'll get it down and be successful after the team gets into a rhythm. Now, with the implementation of randomization, you risk putting both 26's and one of the 27's on the inside, where the Praetorian will just have a cake-walk with them, and the high levels will be left screaming at them for dying and ruining the run. See where I'm getting at now? By implementing the randomness, you essentially lock the door of what should be open to 26 and little to no experience, to 28 and full experience needed. Personally, I think you had the best option DeeJ, where the implementation of random teleportation could have been used as a mechanic for the Hard Raid. That version of the raid demands perfection and perfect teamwork, where randomizing the inside and outside teams should have no effect on a team devoted to perfection, where-as the normal raid is open to making a few mistakes and still being successful. Now, here's what I think you should do. Revert the randomness for the 26 raid (for now), and just enforce it on the 30 raid. Then when Crota's End comes out, if the raid can be done by players with lower levels of experience AND the level cap is raised a few levels, then sure, you should be fine putting it into the 26 raid as well. But since we don't have anything else to shoot for at the moment, I think that once again, that you guys are only catering to the PvP crowd here because of the upcoming addition to IB allowing those guys to get to 30 as well. Just my two cents, but you should really consider that carefully.
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Edited by KayotikSaint: 10/28/2014 4:25:57 PMI for one am not mad at the random thing. Let's be fair, if Bungie intended the teleports to be random from the start ten that's how THEY meant to game to be. The only problem I see that valid with the raid is the fact that they didn't want people to use the sniper towers on the Templar. That's a strategy that doesn't necessarily break the game as it was meant to be played. Jut to clarify I'm pretty sure when we all started to try the raid we all thought the teleporting was happening randomly, then some jerk figured out you can use a strategy bungie didn't intend to be used. That's not he fault of bungie for thinking we wouldn't notice it's the farthest player that get TPd its just bad initial and lazy game design. I feel like the only reason people are complaining about this topic is because we've been doing the raid for so long now that it seems like a hassle to try and do it any other way. As for people planning on not bringing new people into the raid, don't be so shitty to your fellow destiny players. Why can't the learn how to play the raid with a team of experienced raiders? If your guys are so good at the game why do you even have to worry about how bad they are doing at the start, practice makes perfect, no one group is able to complete the entire raid without failing a couple times, let the new guy practice with the damn relic a couple times so he doesn't get thrust into a position where he fails immediately when he needs to grab it. It's not that hard to explain the damn controls for the thing anyway.
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RIDICULOUS!! Why change random teleport?? The random teleport involves teamwork and organising people to their advantages! What happens now when 3 30's do the raid on hard with 3 28's and the 28's get teleported? Guaranteed wipe!! I will no longer do the raid with noobs or anyone under well specced 29. For someone that likes to do the raid the proper way with people you have just ruined it for me. Thank you bungie, for not listening to your fans. I'm sorry but who has the most experience with these types of games bungie or the fans, I see people playing this that has put more time into these mmo type games than 90% of your staff has probably been in the games industry, so you tell me, who's knows the best for this game, you or the players?
