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Edited by Ishigami:
10/26/2014 10:41:41 PM
282
Difficulty: Is anyone even playing this game without exploits on harder settings (Nightfall, heroic etc.)?
I’m am serious here.
Is anyone playing the missions, strikes etc. on harder difficulty (Nightfall, lvl 28 Heroic etc.) the way they are “supposedly” designed?
I can’t fathom this. Everything is killing you in basically one hit (or one hit and a gust).
I mean how do you survive 4 Wizards and 3 Knights at the same time in the Summoning Pits while staying inside the room when everything needs just to look at you to kill you?
I don’t think I am a bad player.
If I do strike playlists I’m usually the one without any death while also having the most kills etc.
I’ve been beating nightfall strikes and heroics for weeks… just not “the way they are meant to be played”. (tm Nvidia)
To cut to the chase: I exploit the living crap out of the AI and terrain.
By BlameItOnBrown:
[quote]OP raises a good point, and I think many people may have missed it.
Is it actually possible to run the nightfall/weekly strikes by actually playing the strike the way it was intended it to be played?
Phogoth is a great example, because I don't know if it is actually possible to go into the final chamber with Phogoth on Nightfall, and not die once the high level minions spawn. Can anyone here say they have done it that way? If not, then isn't there something fundamentally wrong with the game's difficulty gradient?[/quote]
Maybe I worded it poorly but its basically this.
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10 RepliesIt's mostly because of the way they tune their difficulty, especially for the nightfall. Why are Knights the ones that have shields on nightfall/Epic for Hive? If you look at the other ones it's: Harpies (Squishy), Shanks (Squishy), and Psions (Annoying, but ultimately squishy). All of them have no defensive abilities and relatively low damage Then you have Knights: They have an extra shield, do tons of damage, and have the second most health of all Hive units outside of bosses, as well as health regen. Then the burn: Sometimes the burn is utterly useless for the enemy, and sometimes it makes the game nearly impossible. Phogoth: Arc Burn. Wot? Wizards don't even stop shooting, how are you supposed to survive Arc Burn Wizards without either constantly moving or bursting them with rockets as soon as they spawn. Considering sniping is impossible in Phogoth's room due to size and you have a recipe for what is essentially harder (Non-cheese) than VoG Hard. Sepiks: Void Burn. Most of the adds do arc damage, only the boss does Void so it's really easy (Easy-to-dodge boss attack). Valus: Arc Burn. Literally the only arc damage in the mission is Psion wave afaik. So easy. Nexus: Solar Burn. This one is probably the third most difficult, but it's made easier thanks to the squishiness of the adds. Aksor: Every Burn. If not for cheese, this one would be the second hardest. Everything can two or three shot you, you have Lightswitch invisible melee Vandals, Aksor hits like a truck thanks to Solar Burn, and to top it off you have a respawning Mini-Sepiks and Ultra melee captains. You see the problem here? Instead of increasing difficulty with either: A) Mechanics B) More adds They opted for C) Tons of damage Which is problematic, because then you basically have to find a cheese spot or you will die repeatedly. Nightfall strikes are artificially hard instead of something like VoG where it's [i]actually[/i] hard.
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Edited by Worldo33: 10/27/2014 8:09:36 PMIf you run it solo its 100% fine. You just gotta play it smart and patient, get guns that mach that weeks burn etc.. and seriously...seen this so many times...just because you got a good shotgun doesnt mean you can run in there like rambo. And the best way to do the nightfall legit is by having a full raid team of DECENT players. Make sure everyone is pulling their weight. The perfect combo is Sunsinger warlcok/Defender titan + Any other class. The sunsinger can self revive and if thee titan puts his bubble up right after with the right upgrade it will spawn enough orbs to refill the warlocks super. Its a rinse and repeat cycle that basicly stops you being kicked to orbit
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When it comes to PvE anything is fair game. I call getting 2 shotted cheap "difficulty". In PvP I'll hold my super back cuz I think dancer is a bit OP but in PvE I'll use the kitchen sink to make BS difficulty more bearable. Now before you say I'm a cheater, me and my friends can do the thorn summoning pits with minimal to no deaths and find it a fun challenge. Getting 2 shotted at lvl 29 is flat out BS, just my opinion anyway.
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I believe exactly as you do, Ishigami. Nightfall Strikes in particular, but really any mission with a Burn element, or even Lightswitch, doesn't reward playing the game as I think it was intended. Each of the overclasses and subclasses has a vision/purpose on the battlefield, and every last one of them except "sniper/camper" goes away in a super-hard Strike mission. The game doesn't reward playing the character you built any more; it rewards extremely cautious play, weapon kits chosen specifically to exploit the Burn, and using terrain exploits whenever possible. I think there are probably really elite players out there who have actually run each of the Nightfall Strikes without exploits, and I totally salute those players. Not everyone is that good and that experienced. To some degree, wipes and restarts are part of the learning process, but there comes a point where it feels punitive. Some of the Nightfall stuff seems to go to and beyond that point. Of course the answer is probably "just use the Burn," but really, that feels gimmicky too. It doesn't have to be that way. Look at the Draksis mission. Some long-range shooting (coming down the cliffside path to storm the Ketch), some close-quarters shooting (tight hallways and rooms inside the Ketch), winding up in a fantastic fight in the throne room which allows both long and short range styles if the player(s) is(/are) careful. That's one of my favorite runs, even having done it NO END of times, and it doesn't require any gimmicks to be fun to play. More Strikes and missions could really benefit from that level of overall design. Putting in a Burn just means the whole thing becomes an exercise in which side uses guns with that element more effectively. Also I believe it was four Knights and four Wizards, though the Knights were first by a good bit of time. I beat it (solo) by the obvious method, peek into the room entrance to draw aggro from one or more, retreat back into the hallway, focus them down with an Arc MG, rinse/repeat. Worked great for both sets of those enemies... but again, is it fun/the designers' intent?
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My group and I actually go into the summoning pits. We move to the far back left (from the entrance) and defend from the boulders there. If you focus Phogoth down quickly enough, you can drop him before the last dropship with all the wizards comes. I still think Winter's Run with the Priest was rougher. That one we hid underneath the platform and cheesed him =)
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At level 30 in this week's nightfall I get one shot by wizards and knights, I seriously think it would be impossible to go out into the summoning pits to run around and kill phogoth, actually it is, I tried and couldn't even get out of the door. So I mean it's not wrong to find a different way in fighting him.
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Doing it solo is cake. Its hard when you do it with people who dont pull there own weight and you take extra damage.
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I personally dont think its possible for the average player to go into the main rooms in the summoning pits nightfall strike. Those Wizards are lethal. I count myself as average. I solo'd until i had phogoth at half heath. I made one mistake and got returned to orbit. (Stepped too far out of the door and got insta killed by a thrall) Conpleted it with 2 mates by staying in the room before the shreaker and sniping with icebreaker. The week before with the servitor was no problem.
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My friends and I played the weekly heroic lvl 28 while at level 24 and 5 for a few weeks, though I don't know if its possible solo
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Nightfalls = playtests without pay- your compensation is in-game rewards. i love it.
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Haha no. Its impossible.
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2 RepliesI've always played every level on hard and as soon as I hit level 20 I started playing on heroic, like I played missions atleast 2 - 4 levels above my own. The only thing holding me back from doing nightfall is because I don't have the good enough gear.
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7 RepliesDone every nightfall solo. The damage multipliers make it easy. And having vision of confluence.
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Agree, I think the nightfall is too punishing to go toe to toe, I'll hide loads as I like to try solo it. the thing is the smallest of mistakes are taken advantage of. I like a challenge definitely but I do think the difficulty needs looking at because some of the wizards/Knights are just bullet sponges even with maxed out gear.
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Edited by CIeric: 10/27/2014 7:23:02 PMMy friends and i don't do any of the exploits and we have been consistently doing nightfalls and heroic strikes every week. The only thing we haven't tackled yet is heroic VoG, but that's because 2 of our raiders are only lvl 26. Don't worry friend, not everybody out there has to cheat to get shit done. The right path isn't always the easy path, but it feels good to take it anyways. It is possible to defeat bosses without exploiting terrain and mechanics but you have to have good teamwork and communication. With Phogoth as an example - Phogoth himself isn't all that hard, but the adds are a pain. So we stayed on the NW corner of the room (N being the dropship zone) using the big rocks for cover as needed (not the little crevice that you can't be hit in) and we make sure to call out any add spawns and the fireteam leader (me) calls out what needs to die and when. The result is that everything gets focused down before it becomes a threat. Wizards are evil once they start flying around, but when they're just spawning they are easy targets for rockets and snipers.
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10 RepliesHow does one exploit the Nightfall? It's not like we're pushing Phogoth off the edge.
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Just about every week i do the nightfall legit it's not all that terrible once you learn the ins and outs of it
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Yes, I actually two manned the summoning pits this week with my buddy. We were having trouble getting the "cheese" spot to work well for us so we just decided to go at it normal style. We definitely played as conservatively and cautiously as humanly possible but with plenty of heavy ammo and two ice breakers we made short work of the wizards and knights. It was more difficult to avoid Phogoth's horrific eye beams than to safely take out a wizard or two. Warlocks with revive are definitely a must for any legitimate Nightfall attempt.
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This is very much a gray area. If I'm with others I try to do it as close to intended as possible. If I'm soloing it or if we've spent too much time on it I use the exploits.
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If they're gonna make it so enemies can potentially kill you in 2 hits, then afterwards kick you to orbit, making you do it all over again, then hell yes I'm gonna do it the easiest/cheapest way possible. Whether it's hiding under the stairs in winter's run or camping back in the shrieker room, I'm gonna take the path of least resistance
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6 RepliesI vote yes without a problem because the word "exploit" to you means "tactics" to me. Fighting isn't about doing things the proper way, it's about winning at all costs. Since running a nightfall is impossible to do out in the open, you find cover where enemies do not spawn even if it's taking advantage of a bungie oversight or it take me significantly longer. Last weeks nightfall, I sat in the little side building of sepiks prime because I knew nothing spawned there and it gave me a good vantage point. The same applies to the rooms before phogoth in this weeks nightfall. The old saying, "work smarter not harder". Applies here. Also before anyone asks, I've never done the raid or pushed atheon off the ledge or whatever it is, but if I was finding it too hard to complete it the normal way, you can bet I would have no issues with it.
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I haven't done Nightfall, but a friend and I do Heroic Weeklies and Dailies as a pair. Neither of us are particularly good, but we manage fine without exploits.
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nightfall I stay back and be cautious, but the 28 weekly I was in phogath room with no issues.
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lol i'm calling bullshit on the more votes for yes rather than no, exploits means anything other than the way you are meant to play it, so on phogoth for the 3 waves hiding up in that hallway is an exploit.
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Nightfall tactics are probably not considered exploits in most cases. I could see why maybe the darkness zone should be moved up in phagoth's case because the shrieker is not doing it's job. The other nightfall boss tactics have been pretty legit involving players dying (not a god spot) it seems to me like bungie has put these very sound defensive positions in place to be used. for example, you can jump through the broken windows up top at sepiks prime, but not shoot out. VoG is exploited out of convenience of time and frustration. if everyone used heavy ammo synth and had gjallas or ice breakers then the bosses would not be a problem
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5 Replies60% of people are liars hahaha... there isn't a person here that went toe to toe with the wizards on the nightfall this week.
