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3/15/2008 3:36:51 AM
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Why would a Spartan have recoil when he shoots?
This is not a thread for bashing recoil on the SMG or other weapons. I am not suggesting that recoil be taken out of Halo 3. I'm only wondering why there is recoil.
What I'm saying is that, if the Chief, or Spartans in general, are so strong and they have such advanced armor, why would they have recoil when using weapons? Their armor should compensate for it. I've noticed very small amounts of recoil with weapons like the rockets or the sniper rifle.
As super-advanced soldiers, why would the Spartans have recoil?
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I think people who make a big deal of the physics are missing the point. It's not hard sci-fi, and thus is not intended to be realistic. It's about creating a fun gameplay experience. An actual realistic weapon would be the "Kill Everything Button." Since I'm not a big fan of First Person Button Pushers, I'm happy with Bungie's departure from reality. [Edited on 03.15.2008 6:21 PM PDT]
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because guns have recoil...If he were to try and keep the gun steady while shooting he would yank the gun down after the recoil has ended...
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It's an incongruity. A short sighting. The same one ton armor suited guy cannot back over a small tree. He will instead be stuck against it helplessly as enemy fire kills him.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GoW I Lord Hood [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lbit69 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Syntarsis It doesn't make sense because you don't know how recoil works on guns and how it can be affected by it's grip type, feed type i.e. bullpup, etc. Get a glock18c and compare it to a m16. [/quote] Truth.[/quote] Well obviously a glock is going to have a lot less recoil than an M16. But my question is that why would a Spartan have recoil? In reality it wouldn't makes sense, so I'm guessing it was done for effect in the game.[/quote] You don't understand very well do you? When you're using one SMG it has little recoil but when you dual wield it it'll have a lot, same with the glock18. Did you ever try firing 2? (it's very entertaining might I add...) I have, it's basically the same as dual wielding SMG's, the recoil is vertical instead of horizontal because of the lack of a stock and other issues(glock18c's have high vertical recoil and can be considered to have more recoil than a m16). And it's game mechanics, master chief can survive falling from space but he can't survive a simple napalm. It's a matter of balance and realism to a certain extent. [Edited on 03.15.2008 7:58 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] No1 But Some1 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] YourOwnAss It's a SNIPER RIFLE. Have you ever fired a sniper rifle? I have. Impossible to not have recoil.[/quote]Ok, go make a custom game. Grab the sniper and scope in. Shoot twice. Did the ridicule move much for a weapon that puts out 30,000 joules of energy? Also, yeah it's possible not to have recoil. If a gun is being held in position with strong enough of braces in place, it won't move. Recoil only happens when the foundation isn't strong enough to support/absorb the shock energy from the explosion that happens in the barrel when the hammer strikes the bullet. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] citizenER4SED I agree with that other person, you need to get a life. But as for answering your question... the future has stronger weapons therefore recoil will always be a factor for firearms.[/quote]You agree with someone that apparently hasn't posted then. I've already explained both the recoil and the guns in Halo compared to their modern counterparts. The guns in the Halo universe are not that much different than modern weapons. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Los IlluminadosTo balance the game........... not everything needs to be explained...... guns have recoil in the game in order to prevent us from using the AR like a sniper in close quarters.... and besides.... adjusting for the recoil and STILL killing someone takes SKILL..... and thats what we need more of around on Xbox Live...... Recoil = better for the game[/quote]I know, I already explained the recoil in the game for balance issues. I'm an MLG supporter, you don't have to talk to me about skill. I could care less about if it was for Xbox Live or not, LAN is the only way to play if you want to argue skill. [/quote] Guys, listen to No1 But Some1, he seems to be a total genius with this kind of stuff, and he did a little bit of research.
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Here's the thing, it's physics! When you fire a gun, you get an action reaction force. Since the bullet has less mass, the acceleration of the bullet is FAR greater then the gun. ~~Gun~~~~~~~Bullet (a = f / M)~~~~(A = f / m) Get the picture? Good. Here's where gun recoil comes in. Remember the famous law of conservation of energy? (Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transformed from one type to another) The energy of the gun's motion needs to go somewhere, and that's the Chief's shoulder (if he holds the gun properly). Since the energy cannot be destroyed, the energy goes into the shoulder, creating recoil. Although the MC can move his shoulder to compensate, the loss of accuracy will still remain. [Edited on 03.15.2008 1:08 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GoW I Lord Hood This is not a thread for bashing recoil on the SMG or other weapons. I am not suggesting that recoil be taken out of Halo 3. I'm only wondering why there is recoil. What I'm saying is that, if the Chief, or Spartans in general, are so strong and they have such advanced armor, why would they have recoil when using weapons? Their armor should compensate for it. I've noticed very small amounts of recoil with weapons like the rockets or the sniper rifle. As super-advanced soldiers, why would the Spartans have recoil? [/quote] well maybe just like their super advanced bodies the weapons are super advanced too and have a much harder kick?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] YourOwnAss It's a SNIPER RIFLE. Have you ever fired a sniper rifle? I have. Impossible to not have recoil.[/quote]Ok, go make a custom game. Grab the sniper and scope in. Shoot twice. Did the ridicule move much for a weapon that puts out 30,000 joules of energy? Also, yeah it's possible not to have recoil. If a gun is being held in position with strong enough of braces in place, it won't move. Recoil only happens when the foundation isn't strong enough to support/absorb the shock energy from the explosion that happens in the barrel when the hammer strikes the bullet. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] citizenER4SED I agree with that other person, you need to get a life. But as for answering your question... the future has stronger weapons therefore recoil will always be a factor for firearms.[/quote]You agree with someone that apparently hasn't posted then. I've already explained both the recoil and the guns in Halo compared to their modern counterparts. The guns in the Halo universe are not that much different than modern weapons. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Los IlluminadosTo balance the game........... not everything needs to be explained...... guns have recoil in the game in order to prevent us from using the AR like a sniper in close quarters.... and besides.... adjusting for the recoil and STILL killing someone takes SKILL..... and thats what we need more of around on Xbox Live...... Recoil = better for the game[/quote]I know, I already explained the recoil in the game for balance issues. I'm an MLG supporter, you don't have to talk to me about skill. I could care less about if it was for Xbox Live or not, LAN is the only way to play if you want to argue skill.
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Its just a balancing issue. I've been recently thinking about why my Elite walks so slow carrying a flamethrower, when Elites are more than strong enough to hold it one-handed if they wanted to. It all falls under the same category of making sure that every weapon can be easily countered.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dual [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lambinator Because since their enemies are so strong as well, they've made the guns stronger, more than the spartans can handle without recoiling.[/quote]Well then how would a marine controll his gun?[/quote] Have you watched a marine? He struggles to control his gun! He only shoots like 3 smg shots at a time! lol
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To balance the game........... not everything needs to be explained...... guns have recoil in the game in order to prevent us from using the AR like a sniper in close quarters.... and besides.... adjusting for the recoil and STILL killing someone takes SKILL..... and thats what we need more of around on Xbox Live...... Recoil = better for the game
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because no matter how strong you are you can't force something not to move when a couple hundred pounds of force (ie sniper rifle) momentarily moves
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It's a SNIPER RIFLE. Have you ever fired a sniper rifle? I have. Impossible to not have recoil.
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I agree with that other person, you need to get a life. But as for answering your question... the future has stronger weapons therefore recoil will always be a factor for firearms.
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Just to add like to add a few things: [i]Misriah M6D vs. ISI Desert Eagle[/i] -Assuming that both the M6D and the DE's slugs weigh the same, the M6D in Halo: CE did not act properly, having far too [i]little[/i] range than it should have had. This can be explained by "contorted" dimensions in proportion to reality. -Again, assuming both gun's slugs weigh the same, the M6D's rounds have an extra 7mm of room to house more gunpowder. This, especially with the use of high explosive (HE) bullets, agrees with several notions posted earlier in this thread that guns were made more powerful in the Halo universe. However, even with the super strength exhibited by the Spartans, they are unable to control the recoil. [i]Misriah SRS99C-S2 AM & SRS99D-S2 AM vs. Barrett M107[/i] -Due to the anti-matériel properties of the 14.5x114 and 13x99mm rounds, both of these guns [i]should[/i] be useful against vehicles. However, the SRS99C-S2 AM and SRS99D-S2 AM both do not show this. Against vehicles in Halo, they are near-useless; probably for balancing reasons. Both are effective against soft targets however, just as they should be in reality. -The larger round of the SRS99 series compared to modern equivalents seems to be typical of the Halo universe. The additional gunpowder also seems to be implemented to negate the heavier round, keeping the velocity "in check". This would translate into more recoil, however, it seems not to effect Spartan super-soldiers in the Halo universe. [i]M7 vs. H&K MP7A1[/i] -The M7 seems to have been developed in a similar flow that modern submachine guns. The rounds used are not merely pistol rounds, much like early models such as the Thomson "Tommy-Gun"'s, Mac11's, or MP5's. However, realistically, the M7 performs unlike anything in reality with a laughable range and an extremely low muzzle velocity. -The M7 would most likely have an average and very manageable recoil, especially for someone who can flip an Elephant or a 66 ton Scorpion MBT. [i]BR55 & BR55HB SR vs. H&K G36[/i] -The BR55 and it's heavy barrel, scoped rifle (HB SR) counterpart both act like modern assault rifles. The muzzle velocity of the BR55 would be somewhere in the 2,500 J range, greater than that of an AK-47 and weaker than that of an FA FAL, M14, and others. -The BR55 exhibits some recoil, and preforms like it should. But yet again, this should be more than manageable for a super soldier that has armor that can lock in position, assist them flip a tank, and countless other things, seems out of place.
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Are any of you even reading what I just posted? I'm just curious because I am comparing the guns to their real life counterparts...
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Well I assume the sniper shoots .50 cal bullets. It would be near impossible to simply hold and shoot it without getting recoil...even with their advanced armor.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] PYRO Zimmy69 When you think about a 100 caliber rifle that fires thru 15 feet of flesh and bone wont have recoil. your really really wrong.[/quote] You have no idea what you're talking about.
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When you think about a 100 caliber rifle that fires thru 15 feet of flesh and bone wont have recoil. your really really wrong.
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Rockets and snipers are understandable but single SMG's doesn't make much sense.
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I believe there is no logical explanation for this one, ironically it's an attempt to give the game more realism. Otherwise I don't know why they would have added recoil, it isn't as if it makes that big a change in gameplay. EDIT: And at the same time Spartans are able to reload one dual-wieldable weapon with one hand while still shooting with their other hand [Edited on 03.15.2008 11:39 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lambinator Because since their enemies are so strong as well, they've made the guns stronger, more than the spartans can handle without recoiling.[/quote]According to the numerous manuals that came with the game, they are using pretty much the same bullets and mechanisms that we use today. [u][b]Halo Firearms and Ammunition[/b][/u] Misriah M6D- 12.7x40mm HE-SAP Misriah SRS99C-S2 AM & SRS99D-S2 AM- 14.5x114mm AP-FS-DS M7- 5x23mm M443 Caseless FMJ BR55- 9.5x40mm M634 X-HP-SAP [u][b]Modern Firearms and Ammunition[/b][/u] ISI Desert Eagle- 12.7x33mm (.50 Action Express) Barrett M107- 13x99mm NATO (.50 BMG) H&K MP7A1 - 4.6x30mm H&K G36- 5.56x45mm NATO [quote][i]I tried to get modern rifles that were as similar in use as possible.[/i][/quote] [u][b]Comparisons[/u][/b] [i]Misriah M6D vs. ISI Desert Eagle[/i] [quote]Ammunition- 12.7x40 SAP-HE vs. 12.7x33mm Rate of Fire- 210 rounds/min vs. Semi-Automatic Magazine Size- 12 vs. 7 rounds Overall Length- 26.7 vs. 26 cm Muzzle Velocity- Unknown vs. 420 m/s Maximum Effective Range- 122.5 vs 200m [/quote][i]Misriah SRS99C-S2 AM & SRS99D-S2 AM vs. Barrett M107[/i] [quote]Ammunition- 14.5x114 AP-FS-DS vs. 12.7x99mm Rate of Fire- 2/s (1/s H3) vs. Semi-Automatic Magazine Size- 4 vs. 10 rounds Overall Length- 187.5 (168.5 H2) vs. 144.8 cm Muzzle Velocity- Unknown vs. 853m/s Maximum Effective Range- Infinite* vs. 2000m [/quote][i]M7 vs. H&K MP7A1[/i] [quote]Ammunition- 5x23 M443 Caseless FMJ vs. 4.6x30mm Rate of Fire- 15 vs. 19 rounds/sec Magazine Size- 60 vs. 40 rounds Overall Length- 62.7 (47.4) vs. 54.1cm (34 retracted) Muzzle Velocity- 427 vs. 725m/s Maximum Effective Range- 50 vs. 200m[/quote] [i]BR55 & BR55HB SR vs. H&K G36[/i] [quote]Ammunition- 9.5x40 M634 X-HP-SAP vs.5.56x45mm Rate of Fire- 7.2 vs. 12.5 rounds/sec Magazine Size- 36 vs. 30 rounds Overall Length- 89.9 vs. 99.9cm (75.8 retracted) Muzzle Velocity- 670 vs. 920m/s Maximum Effective Range- Unknown vs. 800m[/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dual [Well then how would a marine controll his gun?[/quote] Its a good point if you use the same guns in campaign as the marines why is there so much recoil
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Simple... He can't grip the weapons too hard or else the handles will be crushed because they were made for humans, not spartans. So he has to hold the weapons lightly which when fired allows for recoil.
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i belive to add to the gameplay and balance the playing field
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pointless [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GoW I Lord Hood Well thinking about what other people said, when a Spartan fires a gun he gets recoil. So when a marine fires, why doesn't it take his arm off? My answer: The Spartan's weapons are more powerful, which is why the marines take forever to kill anything.[/quote] So when you take a weapon from a marine it magically becomes stronger?[/quote] Well, I guess I was wrong then.
