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originally posted in:Decoding Destiny
10/16/2014 6:09:53 PM
4
let me preface this by saying I'm not trying to attack your post or ideas. Everything below is written in the form of rebuttal, but only because I only posted the vague interpretation I had. More than anything I'm interested to see if an opposing viewpoint can a. bring more people into the discussion or b. add more points for different ideas on the box's origins:
I think the fact that the box is literally a message isn't an inarguable truth. The line that says this doesn't say it in absolute terms, and the final passage of the card says "But if so, who is delivering this message?" I think it's arguable that this wasn't necessarily intentionally given to humans. Though I do agree that the card is at least pointing the reader to the question of "who made this and why?"
You could make a pretty compelling argument that the box is at least centuries old. If it was studied by the scientists in the Ishtar Collective than it was pre-collapse, which makes the object centuries old in the current time. (The Darkness - "Centuries of debate gave birth to competing arguments on the nature of the Darkness and the Collapse.")
While I can't think of a compelling reason for the fallen to have left this, I think they easily could have. We know they can travel between solar systems and have been around for a long time, considering their current fallen from royalty state. (Servitor - "Servitors are living relics of the once-mighty Fallen civilization.")(The Fallen - "they arrived on their massive Ketches in the wake of the Collapse")(The Fallen - "There are hints of ancient nobility to the Fallen - the scars of lost grandeur.")
We know the hive exist beyond and communicate outside of our current sollar system (ghost dialog in the Shrine of Oryx Mission), and while there may not be an obvious reason I think magic would be a pretty good method of creating something like this.
Cabal have the reach and technology, though I can onlyimagine their giant hands failing to make these and it still makes me giggle.
I still believe the Vex is the most compelling creator, considering the location of object and the Ishtar's Collective research into the ruins on Venus and the Vex themselves. Beyond that, if they're directing a message to us via this box than the lack planets that they could inhabit (Mercury) would make sense. It wouldn't have the same meaning if they included any planets their mostly synthetic bodies could live on.
I believe outside of the Traveler and The Nine there is at least two, if not three other possible messengers. The Darkness itself. Without a clear idea of what the Darkness is I don't think it can necessarily be excluded.
After that would be the Queen. I think you could argue that the Queen has at least access to the knowledge through her interaction with the other species (fallen, and whatever the witches turn out to be) and The Nine themselves (Ghost Fragment: The Queen). Though the Queen's timeframe doesn't make sense as the Awoken were born in the collapse, before the object was being studied.
And the shakiest of them all, though certainly more connected to the solar system would be the hypothetical precursor species of Mercury that the Dreams of Alpha Lupi alludes to in (Ghost Fragment: Mercury)
Without a good means of excluding most of these you could structure a decent argument for most of these species as having sent the message.
As for the Exotic argument, I think it's a great way of looking into Bungie's word usage, but the vast majority of the Exotics have lore that puts their origins and existence solidly in known, post-collapse sources. The armor pieces don't have their own grimoire cards, but even some of these have names that attach them to known origins (like Helm of Saint-14 or Young Ahamkara's Spine or Mk. 44 Stand Asides)
Has origin story:
SUROS Regime
Hard Light
Monte Carlo
Bad Juju
Red Death
The Last Word
Thorn
Universal Remote
Invective
Pocket Inifinity
Ice Breaker
Gjallarhorn
Truth
Thunderlord
Super Good Advice
Unconfirmed but non-mysterious in origin:
MIDA Multi-Tool
The Fate of all Fools
Plan C
Patience and Time
Mysterious:
Vex Mythoclast (why is it designed for human hands?)
English
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Just to throw it out there as another possible source for the box... Humans. If there's a possibility for this being a time repeating on itself, then this could be a statement to ourselves.
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Edited by Ryuu5oul: 10/16/2014 7:08:14 PMVery well thought out counter argument, and way to play the devil's advocate! I will try to counter each point in return. First, you mention that the box may not have been sent as a message but found on Venus. this is possible I believe, but the word choice is important as any writer knows. In addition, why would the researcher conclude that the box was intended to be a message, if it had just been found in the ruins. I am not saying that it is impossible, but that is a question that must be asked. Also, the box could have been sent or found anywhere and then been sent to the Ishtar Sink, since it was known to be one of two of the greatest places of scientific research in the Golden Age. The box is old, at least by the viewpoint of our characters in the game, but in the grimoire, it does not have any indication of age during the Golden Age. By the style of writing, I would expect the writer to tell us if it was old, since that would be very important. I still consider it possible though that is was old or that it was found, but for the purpose of the argument I consider it irrelevant, since we have no evidence that it has any age to it at all. As far as I know the Fallen should not have had such detailed knowledge of our solar system during the Golden age, and while they may have once been a great nation and have traveled through the many galaxies, I doubt their maps are that extensive. I think the Fallen hold their secrets though and out of our enemies they are the only ones that I think would be likely to try and communicate with us, but this does not fit them. A weak argument I know, but can you see the prideful Fallen who consider themselves royalty producing these tiny globules just to send a message? (There are hints of ancient nobility to the Fallen - the scars of lost grandeur. The Kells of their scattered Houses still claim to be royalty. But they leave only grief and wreckage in their wake (exert-Grimoire card: Fallen)) The Hive are possible, but I offer the same arguments, and a red copper box? from them? Their magic would make the job easier perhaps, but they seem to view us as religious enemies. heretics, to whom they will give no quarter. They kill our bodies and torture/drain our Ghosts to death. They do not like us, and I don't see them communicating so civilly, even if it was meant as a threat. Cabal and vex have the reach and the knowledge, but I think we have both acknowledged why they are not likely suspects in our posts. The queen, obviously could not have due to the time frame, like you said, and whatever her connection to the witches and the Nine should be the topic of another thread, which I intend to do later. It is possible that that the species mentioned on Mercury, sent the box. It is also possible that the Mercurians are the Nine, we know so little about them that it is anyone's guess. They may no longer even exist. Finally the Exotics, Why are they so much more advanced and different than any technology that we have? They all have unique bonuses that are unique and seem to defy the norm. To counter your point I will simply point back to my post. [quote] In other words, the exotics that we have possibly originated from or were based on technology from a distant world. Maybe not all of them, but most of them.[/quote] They may not have been made by aliens but they could have been based off the technology, modified by alien technology, or simply contained traits similar to those with alien technology and thus were labeled exotic. This could also merely be a coincidence and i need to stop looking so much into things. Thanks
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The "it could have been sent there" is a pretty good point. The grimoire does show that the Ishtar Collective was aggressively recruiting researchers, it's possible they were also pushing for artifacts or it was brought in by one of these hired researchers. Yea, the age isn't necessarily important to the "who" part. And I think we're stuck dealing with a magic copper box that doesn't oxidize over centuries :P I agree with the fallen part, in as much as there isn't necessarily a great reason for them to have knowledge of our solar system. Having the reach doesn't guarantee that they had ever visited Sol before, and if they had why wouldn't they have attack or scavanged it the way they are now? Yea I think the Hive argument holds as much weight as the Cabal argument. If the hive left anything I'd imagine it would have been a box full of moons and eyeballs (also, after we beat this to death you wanna take a crack at the usage and reference to eyes in relation to moons and the hive in the grimoire? It is everywhere in there and I haven't seen anyone discussing it.) I personally stand by it having been created by the Vex (or some iteration of them), though I haven't offered anything outside of a bulleted list of vague thoughts on why. I think there is a large connection between the Vex and the ruins on Venus and Mercury and some ancient history to these places eluded to by the dreams of Alpha Lupi. There are definitely exotics that are based on (or influenced by) the enemy races. Both Plan C and Thunderlord utilize induction systems (like the fallen Shock Grenades, though they may be tech at the same end points without being based on each other), or Thorn's augmentations "through dark practices." Though there are so many more that have known terrestrial origins that I don't think they're the fuel for the Nine's backing our winning against the Darkness. And no way, keep looking into stuff this much. It's great to read and discuss, and it's a lot easier to process the volume and density of the grimoire cards talking it out.
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Thanks for the response. The moons and eyeballs is interesting and I would love to hash that out next. Focusing on your Vex theory, I stand by my former statement, that anything that they sent would contain worlds that they can inhabit, like Mercury. On the other hand, the fragment did not mention Jupiter or Saturn, although we know that there were Human colonies there before the end of the Golden Age. So either there were some planets that simply were not mentioned or Jupiter and Saturn had not been teraformed yet and thus were not habitable. I believe that the colonies were established later in the Golden Age. If we consider it that, then we must consider that the box contained a globule for every currently habitable planet in the universe. Since Venus and Mars were not habitable until they were teraformed in the Golden Age. The Box could not have been made before the Golden Age. As for the Exotics with known terrestrial origins, remember i said they could have been upgraded by alien tech at some point, or unknowingly resemble alien tech. As for how the Nine have access to these terrestrial armors and weapons is anyone's guess. Perhaps they have means of producing them since they are able to sell so many, but that is baseless speculation. Thanks.
