If you boil down the complaints against Destiny into one thing, it's that some people don't like grinding while others do. I am admittedly new to MMOs, so I don't know whether grinding feels like this in all such MMOs. But Destiny's longevity (ie what it has to occupy you for each portion of the game you pay for) seems largely based on grinding. This isn't meant to be Bungie-hate thread but instead is supposed to focus on the idea of grinding in general in its place within games. Apologies in advance to those tired of complaint threads in these forums, but please consider this a real attempt to have a substantive discussion about grinding in games. So I pose a question: Why is grinding fun? I ask that honestly, because I simply don't understand the appeal. Here is why I don't think grinding is good. It replaces what should be the reward (enjoying the content and gameplay of the game) with an artificial reward (loot) to compel you to do things that are unsatisfying and repetitious. Stated more simply, instead of doing something fun because it's fun you do something not fun because of some thing they give you inside the game. As we will see, I think this is ultimately a way to hide a lack of diversity within the game. First, let's talk about how grinding for loot works. An example of a good and bad use of a loot incentive is in COD. The first set of leveling up you do in COD multiplayer is fantastic. The incentives - perks and weapons - give you a strong reason to keep playing the same matches (in addition to the diversity of experiences within multiplayer matches). But after you max out, that incentive disappears. Once you start prestiging, the only incentive is a new icon by your gamertag (which is why COD started adding new incentives like customization slots or stretched some unlocks across prestiging). I think this a good example of the range of good and bad incentives. Good ones affect gameplay and give you new options. Bad ones simply give you an empty badge of honor or don't drastically change gameplay. Second, let's talk about the type of grinding Destiny has. (Now Destiny builds it's loot incentives across single player/cooperative and multiplayer. I'm going to focus on the former not the latter, because I think multiplayer should be judged based on the qualities of its competitive aspects.). Destiny's grind is focused on guns and armor. I think Destiny's loot grinding is closer to the bad type of loot incentive than it is the good type. Why? Because when the grinding begins - level 20 - any loot you get does not dramatically affect gameplay to make it feel new. Sure, it helps you redo the things you've already completed at an easier pace, but (in my opinion) that's not much to keep you doing the same things. The loot incentive tips towards the good type in completing Raids, but those remain inaccessible to many because of no matchmaking and again, once you've completed the Raid how many times are you going to want to do it again? In the end, Destiny's longevity comes down to doing the same thing over and over again to help you continue doing the same thing over and over again. (Another knock on the loot is that it is all too similar, but I won't get to that.) Third, let's talk about why grinding exists in games. The object of any developer is to hold it's audiences attention. How long it wants the audience's attention is up to the developer, but they want it. Some want it for a few minutes at a time over a long time (eg Candy Crush). Others want it for a few hours for a short period of time (ie games with plot heavy campaigns). And still others want it for a long time over an even longer period of time. These can be games trying to focus on competitive multiplayer(which keeps it's freshness because it depends on the randomness of human players), or games that want you to feel as if you are building something of your own. Destiny is obviously in the last category (again, not focusing on the multiplayer). Bungie wants you to build your legend. It wants you to feel that you have a unique hero who fits Ito a universe of many players all following an epic battle of light vs dark. It's goal is good stuff, I want that type of experience. The question is, how does Destiny, or any game for that matter, go about this? Some games have been able to deliver on the epic battle and unique identity, but only on the single player context (eg Mass Effect, Skyrim). But I've yet to see a game deliver on that in the MMO context. Instead, these games resort to grinding for loot. Why? Because sustaining the type of epic scale with diverse and fresh experiences, on an MMO scale has some inherent practical challenges: - The developer has to retain some control over player activities for quality control purposes. Otherwise, if players could change the world others play in, that world could be changed for the worse for some players, diminishing the value of the game to them. GTAV online is one example. Or games like Day Z, etc. - Controlling the narrative means controlling the experience. If it was a malleable and truly open world, there would be no way for a developer to provide you with a story. We've seen successful MMOs that are unrestrained by a story (eg EVE). Plenty of games provide compelling stories but must restrict the experience to make sure the player witnesses the narrative. But none have successfully inhabited the middle ground Bungie seems to be trying to hold - a compelling narrative in an open world. - Manpower limitations. For every experience, the developer has to create one. This to have many experiences you will need more manpower, which quickly creates budget issues. - Creativity. The idea may actually be harder than the work. How can an FPS developer create experiences that are diverse enough or replayable enough that they feel fresh? These challenges have, and continue to be, addressed not through innovation but through variations of grinding. Rather than create a sustainable world where a long story can unfold through diverse and compelling gameplay experiences, developers avoid the challenges through grinding. While some enjoy the grind, and I'm not asking them not to, I personally believe it is an illusion of depth and is the antithesis of truly compelling gameplay. I think, like with Destiny, you end up with a single player story with huge intermissions of repetition between each episode of story. You might ask, what is the alternative? Well, I think developers need to start facing the challenges rather than run from them. I can't speak to the technical aspects (liberal arts major here), but I can speak to the concepts. Here are are some ideas of how Destiny and future games could have made a world that provided fresh experiences rather than repetition: 1. Imagine instead of a series of underground chambers and a few pathways through buildings, Freehold was an actual city. Now imagine that city felt occupied by Vex and Cabal. Now imagine that city persisted over every player's game, and Guardians could clear parts of the city, but left unchecked Vex and Cabal would reclaims areas. Now imagine if cities were cleared, they could be inhabited by vendors, merchants, and NPCs with missions, etc. Now imagine if you and the other Guardians failed to protect the city over time, it would affect the availability of items you could purchase and have. Now imagine a large scale attack on the city against which ALL Guardians had to participate in the defense against (ie drop what they are doing and rush in). Now that's starting to feel next gen isn't it? 2. Truly big worlds. Remember in the E3 demo at the beginning of the Old Russia mission the player turned around and threw a grenade off a cliff into the backdrop, and said how that's all real geometry? Well, let us explore that geometry rather than have it be a pretty backdrop. Make truly massive worlds that could be randomly populated with enemies and obstacles. Give us vertical worlds (where in Destiny can you climb a summit to see over a large playable area?). Give us different ways to travel those worlds (imagine flying your ship many miles and landing all without a loading screen!). 3. Give us missions based on discovery. Tell us of an artifact that's missing but let us unravel the way to discover it. Have that artifact be meaningful to the story and the world around us. 4. Make a story that not everyone will experience every part of. Force players to make choices that will draw them into one part of the story over the other. Have events secretly scheduled in certain parts of the universe that, if you are in the other part of the universe, you will not partake in. Then, give players way to spread the word about those events, so those that participated really become legends. Have those events shape the story and the world, so actions feel like they have consequences. It's a big risk to take because it asks a lot out of the player community, but I think if done right it would be a huge step forward in gaming. 5. Make enemies live real lives. No more spawn caves! Give our enemies bases that can be attacked, secretly infiltrated, observed, etc. Imagine disrupting an enemy convoy and diminishing their supplies that really affected the enemy presence in the rest of the game. Imagine using your own initiative to discover intel on the enemy. Until a developer faces those challenges and comes up with solutions like I presented above, we are just playing last generation games with better coats of polish. Bungie, for all it's technical prowess and ability to deliver fantastic gunplay, didn't give us a next generation game with Destiny. They gave us the same tired mechanics of grinding and some pretty scenery to provide the illusion of a game that we all want.