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8/7/2014 7:58:25 PM
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Just a forewarning, I don't care whether they implement MM or not, but to play devil's advocate...
[quote]Creating activities for every mood, or every type of gamer, means not everyone is going to like or be able to do every activity. [/quote]
Not true at all. They should still have the [i]opportunity[/i] to do whichever activity they want through in-game mechanics, despite their real life situation. It's not an impossible task.
[quote]And it's extremely selfish and entitled of you to say that the raid Bungie designed for those players should cater to your play style.[/quote]
False equivalency, and not what people are arguing. They are arguing for the opportunity to use MM or do it with pre-mades. Adding MM does not need to alter the raid's play style or affect anyone else's play style.
[quote]Want MM co-op dungeion, there will be probably 20 times as many strikes designed just for you than there will be raids designed for raiders.[/quote]
Raiders can still do strikes just as easily as non-raiders.
[quote]Between strikes, PVP, nighfall events and other limited time activities that Bungie will be providing, the 1 raid is probably like 5% of the available endgame activities. [/quote]
Huge assumption so that argument cannot be made yet.
[quote]Someone only interested in PVE and skipping out on PVP is going to be missing much more of the game that someone that isn't able to raid.[/quote]
But it's their choice without in-game mechanics preventing them from doing PVP.
[quote]And since powerful exotics can be obtained in every activity, you aren't going to be out gunned by someone that can raid.[/quote]
Another huge assumption, and likely an incorrect one. The safe assumption would be the opposite, that raids provide the best gear in the game.
[quote]Creating activities for every mood, or every type of gamer, means not everyone is going to like or be able to do every activity.[/quote]
Being able to like is not the same as being able to do. Giving more people (busy people with less time to commit) the opportunity to do something does not need to prevent other people (raiders) from liking something.
Honestly, if Bungie made it easier to communicate and create clans from WITHIN the game, most the complaints would be moot.
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[quote]Not true at all. They should still have the [i]opportunity[/i] to do whichever activity they want through in-game mechanics, despite their real life situation. It's not an impossible task.[/quote]They do have the opportunity. Using only in-game mechanics, you can invite people into a 6-person fireteam and hop into a raid. You can do this even with an empty friends list. It's difficult to find people who want to go into a raid this way, but not impossible. Matchmaking makes it too convenient for people to get into raids. The easier it is to get a new raid group, the more likely people are to abandon their group (because they lose less in doing so). This is true for the whole community, not just people interested in using matchmaking. I am more likely to find reliable players to raid with if there isn't matchmaking. Adding matchmaking to raids affects me, even though I have no intention of using it myself. Bungie has explicitly stated that Destiny is a social game. All content involves interacting with other players, mostly cooperatively. If it's too hard to make friends to raid with, suggest ways that Bungie could make it easier to find friends. Speaking to matchmade fireteams in strikes and crucible matches, for example. But suggesting that Bungie compromise on the social elements to cater to loners is selfish.
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[quote]They do have the opportunity. Using only in-game mechanics, you can invite people into a 6-person fireteam and hop into a raid.[/quote] You have no way to communicate with those 5 other people until they have accepted your invite, that's the problem. [quote]I am more likely to find reliable players to raid with if there isn't matchmaking. Adding matchmaking to raids affects me, even though I have no intention of using it myself.[/quote] I have no idea how you are arriving at that conclusion. Are you saying people who would normally want to do premade raiding would abandon that and instead do MM if it's implemented? But... why would anyone abandon a group of people they know for strangers? That doesn't make any sense. I still firmly believe that if you decide not to use MM it won't affect you. To add, I don't plan on using MM if it is added. [quote]Bungie has explicitly stated that Destiny is a social game. All content involves interacting with other players, mostly cooperatively.[/quote] For being such a social game it sure has terrible social mechanics. You can't communicate with anyone in-game unless they are in your fireteam. You can't talk to anyone until AFTER they accepted a random invite to a fireteam from a stranger. There is no text chat. The game is missing critical components that are found in MMOs which would make MM for raids not as necessary for certain people. Also, not all content involves working with other players, that is just blatantly false. [quote]If it's too hard to make friends to raid with, suggest ways that Bungie could make it easier to find friends.[/quote] Wholeheartedly agree. If they fix their terrible communication mechanics, MM for raids wouldn't be so necessary for some people.
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[quote]You have no way to communicate with those 5 other people until they have accepted your invite, that's the problem.[/quote]Yes, that is a problem. [quote]I have no idea how you are arriving at that conclusion. Are you saying people who would normally want to do premade raiding would abandon that and instead do MM if it's implemented? But... why would anyone abandon a group of people they know for strangers? That doesn't make any sense. I still firmly believe that if you decide not to use MM it won't affect you. To add, I don't plan on using MM if it is added.[/quote]There are two reasons why I would have a harder time finding people to raid with. The first is that there would be fewer people looking to form pre-made groups in the first place, which makes finding people who can raid at the same time as me more difficult. The second is indeed that matchmaking will result in people abandoning people they know in favor of strangers. I have first-hand experience of this in other games. In fact it happens without matchmaking, but would be more common with the addition of matchmaking (because matchmaking wold make it easier to find a new group of people). [quote]For being such a social game it sure has terrible social mechanics. You can't communicate with anyone in-game unless they are in your fireteam. You can't talk to anyone until AFTER they accepted a random invite to a fireteam from a stranger. There is no text chat. The game is missing critical components that are found in MMOs which would make MM for raids not as necessary for certain people. Also, not all content involves working with other players, that is just blatantly false.[/quote]Yes, Destiny needs better communication. And yes, all content involves interaction with other people: missions force you to go through a public interaction zone at the beginning, exploration is just the public interaction zone, PvP is multiplayer, strikes are group cooperative, raids are larger group cooperative.
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(Also playing Devils advocate, because I think the whole argument is premature) [quote]...They should still have the opportunity to do whichever activity they want through in-game mechanics, despite their real life situation...[/quote] Why? If Bungie was publicly traded and had some sort of shareholder responsibility to make a universally enjoyed/enjoyable product, I'd agree with you that making all the people happy at any reasonable cost was something they needed to try. They're working on contract and on bonuses though. Whether or not they cater equally to every customer is up to those two companies and the contract between them. The designers have absolutely no obligation to the players other than to put the game they choose to design into the hands of the people who want to give them money for it. I'm an abstract artist. Some people like my work. If a group of them got together and demanded that I make my work less abstract so that they could enjoy it more, I would do exactly what Bungie has done, (told them "No", more than once), but I'd be far less polite about it.
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Your analogy is flawed. Allowing match making does not change the content of the raid. A lot of people would be perfectly happy to not have anything nerfed if MM was an option. There will always be someone complaining about difficulty or duration irrespective of whether MM is available.
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Edited by aboniks: 8/8/2014 2:18:47 AMThe analogy wasn't really part of the argument, but I'll bite. The analogy holds; Art = Game, Change = Change What [i]specifically [/i]is being changed is not the point I was making. Whether people want more cowbell, less cowbell or different cowbell, I'm not obligated to put in any cowbell other than the one I want to put in. EDIT: Unless I'm contractually obligated to my shareholders or partners, in which case I'm putting in all the goddamned cowbells I can get my hands on. ;)
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I'd argue that it's more the method of access than the content itself changing. If I had to put that into the analogy I'd suggest it'd be like me wanting to buy your art in a digital format (let's assume for a digital picture frame) rather than a canvas to hang on my wall. I might be a big fan of the art but prefer the flexibility that option provides.
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Edited by aboniks: 8/8/2014 2:44:08 AMI see it differently. In this context, the method of access is actually part of the content being sold, because what's being sold is a total experience. While the player may chop it up into individual pieces in order to conceptualize it and discuss it, the Lead Designer has to view it as a whole, to consider it as a collection of interconnected decisions that contribute to the experience s/he is being given control over. Smith gave a specific reason for his decision not to make the requested change: [i]"to preserve the activity goals"[/i]. That's a decision being made about gestalt gameplay, not about whether or not players individually get to push all the buttons and collect all the peanuts.
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I'm perfectly fine with the content being designed for a team effort and am not asking for the content to be dumbed down to better suit MM. What I would like is the chance to succeed with a MM team that might happen every now again when everything falls into place. The discussion also assumes 6 strangers - but what happens if 6 friends have a group together but 2 end up dropping out? With MM theres a chance of quickly picking up the extra players needed to complete the activity as designed. We're not likely to talk each other around on this one due to perspective differences.
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Edited by aboniks: 8/8/2014 3:13:04 AMI agree on the perspective issue. I'm not very amenable to being persuaded on this topic. It's important to note that I'm neither against MM, nor am I for it, in principle. I support Smiths creative freedom to ship the game he wants to ship, and I think that the specific arguments people have been using so far are based on things that are [i]not[/i] the game. When I have the game content in question on a screen in front of me, I'll form an opinion at that point, and I'll become persuadable to some degree in the ensuing discussions.
