[quote]what you're doing here is revealing of your own fascist paradigm.[/quote] Blowhard. Stopped reading.

[quote][quote]what you're doing here is revealing of your own fascist paradigm.[/quote] Blowhard. Stopped reading.[/quote] Wow. Anyone who still says "blowhard" sounds old enough to be wearing adult diapers. And coming from some a**hole who calls themself "The Pope," I'm happy you disapprove of what I wrote. By all means, GFYS.

Looks well written, but you sound like a turd without a point. All i could think of while reading your comment was a player complaining about Dark Souls. "this game is to hard, i dont want to take the time to learn how to beat it, I dont have the time or willingness to play. why cant the game just Summon me Helpers to walk me through the game, i dont want to have to play online and manually summon players. Why couldnt [u]Prepare to Die Edition[/u] be [u]Dark Souls: Tour Guide Edition[/u]? rolling? whats rolling? what are iframes? Why doesnt fromsoftware respect my desire to be a Ninja Tank Dark Lord Assassin with a Cape? I should be able to play this like Fable. Why cant I press 1 button to win?" Meanwhile at Bungie and Fromsoftware headquarters "Why cant I hold all these casuals" [u]They made a gameplay decision[/u]. :D to bad everyone, to bad. As the dark souls community would say, GitGudFgt (also you would make a really good troll. good wording, very little substance. Great for bsing an argument, getting people to take you seriously, with the only intention of wasting peoples time.)

I stopped playing Dark Souls because the game actually sucked. *shield myself from flying feces* I had no problem with the gameplay or difficulty, I just didn't find the concept of the game very engaging. [spoiler]Sit down and rotate![/spoiler]

Here, I'll pick apart your comment a bit. Have you ever participated in an MMORPG raid before, say like in World of Warcraft? Back in the vanilla WoW days, you had to hand pick your best 40 people to take along to learn the end game raid content. You simply did NOT bring in people that have no clue what it takes to tackle the content as they would just waste everyone's time. Organizing and managing 40 people in a game, online wasn't the easiest thing to do, but it was very effective in having a solid team because those that showed up wanted to play and to progress (and they communicated!!!). When I was that involved with WoW many years ago, it could take a solid month or more to beat MC / BWL lol. Back then you couldn't carry people like you do now. Sure, the LFG (looking for group) tool helps you get into a run much faster these days, but you always get in with a bunch of idiots that just run in and wipe the group constantly, or get mad if you aren't doing 03943904903848 dps and start booting everyone. You are just thrown in and have to deal with who you are matched up with and that's that, not knowing if they are any good or if they totally suck. Sure, MM can make it a bit easier, but just going into a run with a few semi intelligent people and a few not so intelligent people will spell disaster, not to mention a big waste of time because the ones that get frustrated leave, then you have to wait for someone else to join up and they won't have a clue as to what is going on. It's a total catch 22 when you boil it down. I know I will only go into the hardest content with my buddies that will take it semi seriously and try to progress. People are just afraid of doing any work on their own and don't like to be really challenged, so they want it dumbed down for everyone so they can jump through it easily to only say "man that wasn't hard, you suck bungie"!!!.. /sigh. If it's too hard for some people, then those people need to realize it and just not attempt it until they get better or make friends that can lead them forward.

[quote]Here, I'll pick apart your comment a bit. Have you ever participated in an MMORPG raid before, say like in World of Warcraft? Back in the vanilla WoW days, you had to hand pick your best 40 people to take along to learn the end game raid content. You simply did NOT bring in people that have no clue what it takes to tackle the content as they would just waste everyone's time. Organizing and managing 40 people in a game, online wasn't the easiest thing to do, but it was very effective in having a solid team because those that showed up wanted to play and to progress (and they communicated!!!). When I was that involved with WoW many years ago, it could take a solid month or more to beat MC / BWL lol. Back then you couldn't carry people like you do now. Sure, the LFG (looking for group) tool helps you get into a run much faster these days, but you always get in with a bunch of idiots that just run in and wipe the group constantly, or get mad if you aren't doing 03943904903848 dps and start booting everyone. You are just thrown in and have to deal with who you are matched up with and that's that, not knowing if they are any good or if they totally suck. Sure, MM can make it a bit easier, but just going into a run with a few semi intelligent people and a few not so intelligent people will spell disaster, not to mention a big waste of time because the ones that get frustrated leave, then you have to wait for someone else to join up and they won't have a clue as to what is going on. It's a total catch 22 when you boil it down. I know I will only go into the hardest content with my buddies that will take it semi seriously and try to progress. People are just afraid of doing any work on their own and don't like to be really challenged, so they want it dumbed down for everyone so they can jump through it easily to only say "man that wasn't hard, you suck bungie"!!!.. /sigh. If it's too hard for some people, then those people need to realize it and just not attempt it until they get better or make friends that can lead them forward.[/quote] Where's the part that explains how the existence of a matchmaking system would affect those who don't use it? I can't find it. If you have your premade, why would you care about pugs? Why would you care whether someone else wants to roll the dice with randoms for fun? Why would you care if they can use matchmaking to get themselves in a trap run? You shouldn't object to a system that has no affect on you. Yes, I have played MMOs on PC. I know the perils of Instance Matching and LFG. I know how difficult the mechanics of Hardmode instances can be with just a 5-man composition, let alone 20 or 40 people. These 6-man raids will likely be long, drawn out and painstakingly tedious to master in some cases. None the less, a matchmaking system is just a means of allowing mutually interested players to find eachother and group up. With the right design and implementation, a lot of the symptoms of a trap run could be caught before the run ever begins. With proper explanations of the mechanics of each Raid and composition tips and tutorials, even totally new and not-so-talented players would have a clue. You know people will watch YouTube videos and read blogs to learn how to clear Raids. After that, it's about having the AMOUNT of people necessary as much as it is about having the RIGHT people. A matchmaking system, done right, would be no harm to anyone but would be a big help to plenty of players. It's not fair to the good players who simply don't know a lot of people who play or just play at odd times for their geographic region. Language barriers arise out of playing when distant timezones are most active. There could be a thousand reasons why someone would use LFG or Intance Matching for Raids that you would never know. Point is, it doesn't concern you.

It does effect us, because you will get a groub with idiots, then you can't beat the bosses and because of this you are going to yell NERF NERF over and over again. And at the end you want the raid to be done solo, because you are a lone wolf and it's all about you, every time. And if not its wrong.

Absolute nonsense. You're basing those statements on your experiences in WoW or some other MMORPG. When it comes to game mechanics, what is hard to understand about "shoot em in the face because Jesus loves headshots?" Honestly, if you know how to find the critical hit location and can actually aim correctly (not like you AR and PR spray and prayers) there should be no problem with a few "noobs" trying their hand and learning what it takes. Aren't we all new to the concept of raids on Destiny? Do any of us really know what to expect from them? No, we don't. The fact is you don't even qualify for raids until you reach a certain level/light because earlier than that you can't even harm the enemies. Once you make the requisite level you have the right to try your hand at a raid. It shouldn't matter how the team is organized. If you put your name into the hat for a raid it should be assumed that you are willing to commit the time it will take to see it through. I know that is the case with me. Besides, in my experience doing patrols and raids, in a training environment, it was typically the chest pounders who got taken out of the picture first because they didn't know how to react if their preconceived ideas of how things would go didn't get met (also known as an inability to adapt to a fluid situation). If you want to spend a month trying to over plan this sort of thing (and yes any planning will be over planning because no plan ever survives contact with the enemy) that is your business. Personally, I would welcome the challenge of trying to lead a bunch of disparate randoms into a raid (something about forging them into a cohesive fighting unit while fending off the multitudes of difficult enemies appeals to me). When it comes down to it, no one person can predict how they will have to play to get the job done because of the random nature of the game (no two battles have ever been the same for me). Now on to you're real fear of this mm stuff. Everyone is way too concerned about the raid difficulty being nerf'd if too many people can't complete said raid via mm. Bungie doesn't have to listen to those complaints. It is their right to preserve their product in the image they envisioned it to be (mm won't alter the content or difficulty, only offer a more expedient method of attempting the content). Bungie has never pandered to whiners in the past, why would it start now? I would like to see a mm introduce in this regard because otherwise it will end up like ODST. That being said, Bungie has already stated that there will be no mm for raids, so I have no idea why this is even up for debate. Spin your wheels all you want, you only end up going nowhere fast.

Well there will be no mm, like you said. So I'm happy and I do hope that it is extreme difficult. But I do think that you are right, it's just going to be a pew pew crit skill... Also, it's not that hard to find 6 people, you can go to the tower, check the gesr from other people, inv them to chat. Or inv someone you found in explore.

The entire point of not having matchmaking, whether you agree with it or not, is to force you to find people to play with. Taking the time to find teamates shows a level of teamwork and commitment that bungie wants people to have before they attempt the raid

[quote]The entire point of not having matchmaking, whether you agree with it or not, is to force you to find people to play with. Taking the time to find teamates shows a level of teamwork and commitment that bungie wants people to have before they attempt the raid[/quote] I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll venture to guess no one is fond of being "forced" into something inconvenient simply because it's what "Bungie wants." Intelligent matchmaking systems are just that. Intelligent. Anyone who's satisfied with their 6-man Raid Team that's ready to go 24/7/365 is not exactly a candidate for a matchmaking system. So, why would someone who's not subject to using the system object to it's existence? Makes no sense by any means. To be perfectly clear about this, anyone who does NOT feel they would use a Raid matchmaking system has no legitimate reason to object to it.

[quote]I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll venture to guess no one is fond of being "forced" into something inconvenient simply because it's what "Bungie wants." [/quote] Then don't buy it. They've got a specific vision they want with this game. People have been bitching that the game isn't a social game because there isn't a proper communication system. I couldn't disagree more. Everything they're doing is trying to foster a system that encourages close meaningful relationships. No proximity chat/splitscreen/matchmaking? You have to get to know people within the game. Adding someone to your fire team or going out of your way to find people to raid with requires social interaction, and that is what they want and that's what kind of game they're making. I'm not even a huge fan of chatting during games. I still went out and bought a headset because I knew that's what kind of game this would be. Don't get me wrong, you can still do everything other than the raid alone and be successful, but for that one aspect they're requiring social interaction.

[quote]Then don't buy it. They've got a specific vision they want with this game.[/quote] Wow. You're that guy. The "don't buy it then" guy. No one likes that guy. So long as we're intentionally being a**holes with our responses, I ought to tell you to go f**k yourself. I'll buy what I want, how I want, when I want. Got it? Good. Moving on. From my perspective, this thread is about the efficacy of an Instance Matching or LFG system for Raids being implemented and how it might be implemented. If you're not here to make a constructive contribution then you are in fact the one doing the bitching. All you've done so far is make irrelevant, poorly contemplated and anecdotal remarks that merely point out the obvious, to the benefit of no one. Everyone here knows what Bungie said and why they said it, if we didn't we wouldn't have a premise for this thread. So either make a relevant point or GTFO. Bitching about what some other people said in some other thread about some other topic is just hypocritical. As for telling me not to get the game, I could say the same to you. However, I'm not a douche. You're the one that said Bungie's intention was to "force" us to find people to play with. If I don't like arbitrarily being "forced" to find players to play with as some sort of barrier to playing Raids that's purportedly to ensure my interest is "serious" enough, then it's because it's illogical not because I sit around making complaints for the sake of it. I disagree with the decision and this forum is where disagreements are meant to be voiced. The lack of a matchmaking system does not promote social interaction, it impedes social interaction. Instance Matching or LFG would be social tools. The other topics you mentioned (ie, proximity voice) are irrelevant to this one. You're contradicting yourself by advocating social interaction but denying there should be a system promoting social interaction for Raids. Instance Matching and LFG would allow players who don't know each other to get to know each other by running raids together. Rather than merely sticking with their friends list. If I can meet people in Crucible through matchmaking and subsequently end up in a Raid group with them, why can't I find those same people in an LFG board or through Instance Matching for Raids? Same outcome, different means. Not creating an LFG system or Instance Matching system doesn't foster more socialization outside the necessity for a group. In other words, making people hunt down people to group with doesn't make them do much else. Creating a need for people to group up but purposely denying them access to a tool for doing so is just lazy design. Frankly, the only real reason not to have a method is so they don't have to make one or support it. If anyone should not buy the game it's people who have nothing positive to contribute to it. I'm over here trying to impact improvements that would help a lot of people. What the hell are you doing that's useful?

Lol well then buy the game if you want to, but when the features you want aren't in there just don't bitch. Here's what bungie is, as I see it, trying to do with their social connection: foster deeper relationships between gamers. They don't want you to be able to talk to everyone at once but they want you to work together with your fire team members. People also got mad over fireteams of three. Why did bungie originally have 3 man fire teams? It is to make everyone feel like they're an integral part of the team. Having anymore than that make the game WAY easier. For proximity chat, if you can talk to anyone next to you, why team up at all except during a strike or raid? With 6 people communicating on explore the game would be a breeze. It takes away a big part of the incentive for fireteam chat. Same thing on the matchmaking; you're forced go out and find people to play with. I'm not saying to like or dislike it, but to be aware of the direction they're going; attempting to make gamers get to know each other instead of just playing that quick pug [b][i][u]all[/u][/i][/b] the time. Personally I think it's pretty cool and I like their features. From your point of view this thread is about what? Who cares what you think it's about; it's actually about bungie [b][i][u]NOT[/u][/i][/b] giving into matchmaking. It says it in the title of th thread.

[quote]People also got mad over fireteams of three. Why did bungie originally have 3 man fire teams? It is to make everyone feel like they're an integral part of the team. Having anymore than that make the game WAY easier. [/quote] Alright... deep breath before I sink your ship. By this logic the 6 person, hand picked squad of friends would make the game WAY easier (at least that has been the consensus of the fools claiming that you can't beat the raids using MM randoms). So that is actually an argument for having MM in raids, because it inherently makes the game more challenging. That is, unless you guys really DON'T know what you're talking about. If that's the case then we really have no reason to listen to any of your counterarguments because we already know you have no clue. MM is simply a social tool (sort of like online dating) that introduces people to each other. By denying that tool Bungie is in fact limiting the social interaction in the game, making it less social than they say they envision it to be. That constitutes a failure on their part to make informed decisions.

So you're "sinking my ship" by saying matchmade teams will make the raid easy so let's make it harder by getting paired up with randoms? Except for the fact they've stated teamwork will be necessary, something that isn't inherent with matchmade fireteams. [quote]MM is simply a social tool (sort of like online dating) that introduces people to each other[/quote] No it -blam!-ing isn't. It's their so you can play a game quickly and easily (and a raid is neither). You can get to know someone who you get matched up with, but that is by no means it's purpose.

I'm simply using your own logic and argument against you. So what, the raid will take cooperation to do. That just means it will be a cooperative MM, not a competitive one. I have no problem cooperating with a group of random people. Maybe you do and that is why you think it won't be possible for everyone else. If it's not forbidden, it's mandatory. MM will help people meet each other. How do you typically meet people? The majority of the people I meet are in games through MM. We talk, communicate, strike up a rapport and then do a few more games with each other before parting ways. During that time we will have completed objectives and covered each other in firefights. That seems to be cooperation in my book. I see you are quick to jump on the lazy train because you are too ignorant (ignorant does not mean stupid, it just means you don't know any better) to see what things actually do. The "blam" in your comment was a dead give away for your ignorance because you could have left out the vulgarity and not changed what you said. So what, MM hasn't been used that way before. That does NOT mean it CANNOT be used that way. Only an idiot tries to do a job without utilizing all of the effective tools at his/her disposal (note: I didn't accuse you of being an idiot, it is a generalization that is actually true). Your own words used against you [quote]You can get to know someone who you get matched up with[/quote] Original purpose is irrelevant, all that matters is how it gets utilized. That can be said for any tool. A chisel can be re-purposed to be a knife or a screw driver. Prisoners re-purpose toothbrushes into makeshift weapons. The same type of re-purposing can be applied to the MM system.