[b]I am NOT an employee of Bungie nor one of Microsoft, and my views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of either of the aforementioned entities.
Also, thanks for sticking this Bungie, I hope it is useful.[/b]
There is one caveat to consider before we get under weigh. Bungie is not likely, nor or ever, to release the true inner workings of the Halo 3 ranking system, but as it is based somewhat on the Microsoft Trueskill system, this is a fair approximation of the way skill ranking works in Halo 3.
[quote][i][b]What is the Trueskill system?[/b][/i][/quote]
The Trueskill system is a player skill rating system for Xbox Live. Halo 3 uses a version of the Trueskill system in order to make the matches fairly even.
[quote][i][b]How Does Trueskill Work?[/b][/i][/quote]
Trueskill assigns skills on a normal distribution (bell curve, Gaussian). The Trueskill system has two main variables to consider. They are your player skill level ([b]Mu[/b]) and your uncertainty factor ([b]Sigma[/b]).
[b]Mu[/b] is an approximation of your skill level based upon past performance. Win games to raise Mu, and lose games to lower Mu.
[b]Sigma[/b] is the numerical representation of the range in which your [i]true[/i] skill could lie. Play really consistently, and you have a low Sigma. Play streakily, and you have a higher Sigma.
After a win, the Trueskill system adjusts your skill ranking based upon the Mu and Sigma of all the players in the game. We'll go deeper into [i]how much[/i] it is adjusted later.
Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game.
[quote][i][b]Why don't I level up after winning X games in a row? / Why does my friend go up three levels a game and I don't?[/b][/i][/quote]
Mu increases after a win. Always. [b]The increase is proportional to the winner's Sigma and the Mu difference between the winner and the loser.[/b] So, if your Sigma is high, you will proceed faster through the ranking system (in BOTH directions). If your Sigma is low, you will both gain and lose rank more slowly.
[quote][i][b]So, I want a high Sigma value?[/b][/i][/quote]
While it sounds as though a high Sigma value is desirable, it CAN be a double edged sword. A high Sigma can mean you increase by one level for every win. It also means you decrease by one level for every loss. In addition, a high Sigma means that your skill ranking will be significantly lower than your actual skill owing to the conservative nature of the [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] ranking equation.
Also, Sigma value starts out VERY high. So, if this is your friend's first time in a particular ranked hopper, and he wins consistently, his rank will rise meteorically due to his high Sigma.
[quote][i][b]Myth Busting[/b][/i][/quote]
Trueskill DOES NOT take into evaluation performances inside the game. The ONLY statistics that Trueskill takes from a game are the Mu and Sigma values of all the players, and how you placed.
This means that out of all of these statistics:
Getting the MVP
Having a High K/D ratio
Getting the most medals
Skill levels of those you killed / killed you
Weapons you used
Headshots
Captures, detonations, stops, ousts, etc.
NONE of them matter when calculating the Mu increase/decrease. Any link between any of these and the skill ratings are purely correlative and not causative.
For example. When I play Team Slayer with my buddies on my alternate gamertag, much of the time I end up carrying the team. I created this tag to play with my buddies, and as such, have only ever played on that party with that tag. I ranked up to the level of my friends within 20 or so games, while it had taken them 50 to 100 games to reach their level. My friends thought that it was because of my frequent MVP status and my high K/D ratio that I leveled up so fast.
Wrong. I leveled up fast because [b]A)[/b] I initially had a very high Sigma, making my Mu more variable after each win, [b]B)[/b] Starting out at a 1 and playing people in the mid teens gave me a considerable boost every time I won, and [b]C)[/b] We won more frequently than they had in the past.
[quote][i][b]Summation[/b][/i][/quote]
If you're worried that you're not getting your fair shake in the ranking system, look at the last 50 games that you've played in that hopper. (If you haven't played 50 games, play more. The system needs more data.)
Take your win/loss average. If it's 65% or above, and you've been in that playlist for a while, you've probably increased in level 2 or more times over the last 50 games (or you will in the next 20 or so). Otherwise you are going to be hovering around the same level or dropping in rank.
[quote][i][b]Addendum, Opinion, and Technical Notes[/b][/i][/quote]
In strict Trueskill systems, Sigma only decreases. I believe the "momentum" system in Halo 3 means that Sigma can be increased through consistent winning or losing. This is total conjecture, but I think that Sigma in Halo 3 matchmaking hoppers is proportional to the absolute value of the win/loss ratio of your last X number of games. The formula probably looks a little like: [b]Sigma = C ( | wins - losses | )[/b] where C is an arbitrary constant. This would explain why when some people go on a win streak with two or more different parties, their skill goes up faster than their teammates' skill.
I also believe that the system is weighted so that the peak of the normal distribution is around level 20, not level 25. That means it will take more wins to level through 1-25 than it will 25-50. Which makes a bit of sense, if you don't want the highest levels too terribly crowded.
[b]The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.[/b]
Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up.
Trueskill ratings have no discernable correlation from hopper to hopper. When you play on a hopper you've never played on before, you are starting with a fresh Mu and a high Sigma.
Team Mu and Team Sigma are the summation of the Mu and Sigma values of all the players on the team. When calculating the skill of an opponent in a team game, the system uses the Team Mu and Team Sigma values in calculation wherever rational.
*Removed equations for space. They can be found in the link below.*
[url=http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx#How_to_Update_Skills]The rest of the equations and a less Halo 3 centric analysis of the Trueskill system can be found here.[/url]
_________________________________________________________
[b]Important additions, Appendices, and Member Questions Answered[/b]
_________________________________________________________
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14457003]In-depth response to a post LoveNub made later in this thread. Should clear things up for some.[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/createpost.aspx?postID=14504550]More data analyzed, and a request for help with research[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471689]Kudos to Jay120171 for finding the post detailing the Mixed Party Bug in matchmaking.[/url]
[quote][i][b]"Why do I win 10 games and not level up, then delevel when I lose 2? Help!"[/b][/i][/quote]
There are several possible explanations for this. The easiest one, and the one that fits the Trueskill system EXACTLY as explained by Microsoft, is that losing against a team that is X (I believe 6 or more, but experimentation is needed to determine the true value) skill points below you can cause you to lose as much as [b]5 times[/b] the Mu value that winning against even level teams gains you. Of course, winning against a team that has X [i]more[/i] skill levels than you can net you as much as 5 times the Mu gain. The reverse is true as well. Winning against a weak team can count as little as 1/5th of an even skill win.
Second, and this is enlightened conjecture, your Sigma value was low at the beginning of your streak, and since your win streak is raising it, the conservative ranking system (Remember, Rank = Mu MINUS (K times Sigma)) is kicking in to reduce your apparent skill level. Your real Mu is higher, but your higher Sigma is having a negative impact.
[quote][b]mo0vaf00 writes:[/b] (edited to clarify intent)
So is there some kind of value that requires you to be inconsistent to rank up? If I win 1 game going even and win the next going +10 do I have more of a chance of ranking up than just winning 2 games getting the same score?[/quote]
This conclusion is popping up fairly frequently. The answer is no. The system does not look at "In Match" statistics. At all. These stats are all included in a list above. The game only looks at your wins and your losses, and the strength of the opponents you play against.
Also, the system does not "reward" you for having a high Sigma value. There is ONE positive associated with high Sigma, and there are TWO negatives.
Positive: Your level can move up faster through winning.
Negative: Your level can move down faster through losing.
Negative: The conservative ranking system ranks you lower when your Sigma is higher.
Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving.
[Edited on 11.24.2007 11:54 PM PST]
-
Campaign no for sure but Custom Games still remains a mystery.
-
I got it and I am completely clueless at the same time. I thought it was based on victories.
-
[quote]Wait, what? Uncertainty is lowered more for an unpredictable outcome compared to a predicted outcome? Also, the lower the sigma, the higher the MU gain? No, look again.[/quote]Did you just ignore the graphs and formulas from the MS website I linked to? I'll go over it, step by step. Let the unexpected outcome happen. Lower teammate sigma -> Lower C. muWinner
lower(muWinner-muLoser)/C lower (muWinner-muLoser)/C + higher epsilon/C -> higher v(t,e) Lower C2 -> higher sigma2/C2 higher sigma2/C2 & higher v(t,e) -> higher sigma2/C * v(t,e) -> Mu changes more. More unexpected result -> uWinner-uLoser is smaller -> w(t,e) is higher -> 1-w(t,e) is lower -> final sigma is lower. And if that for some reason isn't enough for you, go play around with [url=http://atom.research.microsoft.com/trueskill/rankcalculator.aspx]the trueSkill calculator from the MS website[/url] and observe that every time you reduce the sigma of someone in an unexpected win, the others gain/lose more mu and lose more sigma. And when switching the result from expected to unexpected, sigma loss is increased. In expected results, the Cs inside and outside the v() function go against each other, neutralising or reducting change when sigma reduces. But since the big gains are in unexpected results, getting the most out them is the fastest way to level up. The primary point of losing is not to lose sigma, it is to lose mu. Because of the teammate's lower mu, the new player gets more credit for beating worse opponents. Also, the low mu makes them able to play the most legit low-level players that trueSkill would normally make them avoid due to the high starting mu (and as we know, "most legit"->low sigma-> lower enemy mu->lower). A new account isn't able to play the most legit players at their own mu, thanks to Bungie's 10 level search range. The constant losing creates unexpected results until the quitter finally reaches the skill level that corresponds to a player who always quits. The sigma is changes as follows: [b]new sigma = old sigma*sqrt(1-(old sigma^2*w(t,e)/c^2)) + tau[/b]. When a player's sigma converges, the amount of sigma lost due to multiplication must be the same as tau. And unexpected results lead to a lower multiplier, which means that the 'convergent' sigma must also be lower so that the loss is equal to tau. The key here is that while the very final, converging sigma is the same for all levels and skills, the quitter is only on his way to his true level from a higher level. Because of this, he gets more unexpected results, which result in a lower sigma along the way. At the mentioned level 10, he still isn't as low as he will eventually end up at, and thus his sigma is lower than the sigma of a true legit level 10. -
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kpicm what ive been wondering for a long time is does your rank increase outside of matchmaking gameplay? (i didn't read the whole thing so if thats on there i apoligize).[/quote] If you mean outside of "ranked" matchmaking, then yes. There is basically an unseen "rank" for each Social playlist, since the system still tries to find appropriate matches for your particular skill/performance in that particular playlist. Outside of matchmaking (ranked and unranked), there are no "ranks". The question becomes nonsensical, which is why I assume you meant "outside of ranked matchmaking" instead.
-
finally i was wondering how it worked. i was getting very ticked but now that i know i understand and will not get as angry.
-
what ive been wondering for a long time is does your rank increase outside of matchmaking gameplay? (i didn't read the whole thing so if thats on there i apoligize).
-
Wow! That was a mouth full! But THX on explaining it in very specific detail!
-
The simple proof is that a guy cannot get a 50 in 25 games playing with legit 10's at the beginning. Speed ranking only occurs with enablers.
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mutoid Log Firstly, unexpected results actually lower sigma more than expected ones, as we see from [url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/skilldia_5.jpg]top right here.[/url] For the relation between teammate sigma and mu change, [url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/equations.jpg]this[/url] clearly tells that lower teammate sigma = higher mu gain (the sigmas in c = team sum sigmas). A large amount of lost games acts as overwhelming evidence for the player being bad. And due to quitting, the player's performance in each game is incredibly consistent; the exact same every time, actually. And yes, a legit ten should level a new account up as fast as someone who quit to ten. If they had the same sigmas, that is. But thanks to the consistency of the quitter, he may have a lower sigma, and thanks to that also lower mu, than a standard legit player at the same level.[/quote]Wait, what? Uncertainty is lowered more for an unpredictable outcome compared to a predicted outcome? Also, the lower the sigma, the higher the MU gain? No, look again. The equations will almost always lower sigma, the point you missed is that the simple act of losing is not what increases his sigma. Yes, the sigma change, based on the equations, is minimal for the dude quitting a 100 games. The "enabler" part of it is the Tau value. This is a developer set variable and is the amount of sigma added back in between each game. Bungie reportedly has this set as high as they can without forcing a significant MU change after every game. So you are partially right. Yes the sigma change is minimal when looking at the equations. It TAU that enables a player to increase their sigma. It is the increased sigma (enabler and new account combined) that gets them not only high quality matches (against established accounts with low sigma), but factors MU gain up and allows them to gain skill levels quickly.
-
Very well explained and thought out... Even if I didn't understand half of it. :P
-
idk.your rank either goes up,down,or stays
-
Firstly, unexpected results actually lower sigma more than expected ones, as we see from [url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/skilldia_5.jpg]top right here.[/url] For the relation between teammate sigma and mu change, [url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/equations.jpg]this[/url] clearly tells that lower teammate sigma = higher mu gain (the sigmas in c = team sum sigmas). A large amount of lost games acts as overwhelming evidence for the player being bad. And due to quitting, the player's performance in each game is incredibly consistent; the exact same every time, actually. And yes, a legit ten should level a new account up as fast as someone who quit to ten. If they had the same sigmas, that is. But thanks to the consistency of the quitter, he may have a lower sigma, and thanks to that also lower mu, than a standard legit player at the same level.
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mutoid Log Simple. The boosters quits out of a lot of games, and this causes his team to lose most of them. By losing a lot of games, his mu and sigma become very low, which means that the system is certain that he is terrible. Now when a new account "carries" him to victory every time, the system thinks that the new player must be very high skilled, and thus raises his mu and drops his sigma quickly, making him reach a high level very fast.[/quote]How does playing unpredictably (losing a most of your games) lower your sigma? The system is arranging matches with a high probability of draw and if almost all of those matches result in the player losing, the system is less confident the player is ranked appropriately. The problem is, a player who is a legit 10 (low mu & sigma) playing with a new account will not have the same effect as a person who was higher and quit a ton of games to get down to a 10. The legit 10 and a new account will not get to 50 in 25-30 wins. You are saying these 2 accounts are virtually the same as far as the system is concerned with a low mu and sigma. They simply cannot be and by looking at the equations the only reason can be because of a few factors - sigma & match quality.
-
Simple. The boosters quits out of a lot of games, and this causes his team to lose most of them. By losing a lot of games, his mu and sigma become very low, which means that the system is certain that he is terrible. Now when a new account "carries" him to victory every time, the system thinks that the new player must be very high skilled, and thus raises his mu and drops his sigma quickly, making him reach a high level very fast.
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mutoid Log No, no. Having a high sigma slows your teammates down. The goal of quitting is to make the system 100% sure that you are terrible (which means low mu and low sigma) - that's achieved by losing, and quitting is an effective way to rack up losses.[/quote]I don't agree but if what you say is true, explain to me how someone can quit 100's of games, party up with a new account and get the new account to 50 in 25-30 games - even gaining skill against players lower than they currently are. [url=http://www.bungie.net/stats/playerstatshalo3.aspx?player=odst%20neighbor]Account boosted to MLG 50[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/stats/playerstatshalo3.aspx?player=MLGLEVELSoCOM]Account used as an enabler (booster)[/url]
-
Thanks a lot for the info, in the last 3rd answer, where can I see that bungie pdf? any link will be appreciated. thanks
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jay120171 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] E60MkNeelz360 I see people who have negative 380 xp. Is that because their sigma is high and they basically level every time after a win? [/quote]Without getting it to a lot of the details, you can increase your sigma for a playlist by quitting hundreds of games in that playlist. [/quote]No, no. Having a high sigma slows your teammates down. The goal of quitting is to make the system 100% sure that you are terrible (which means low mu and low sigma) - that's achieved by losing, and quitting is an effective way to rack up losses. [quote]1. How does FFA account for TrueSkill? What do they look for instead of just Wins/Losses and the skill levels of the players? For FFA, do they look for the numbers you were placed after the game? [/quote]Everyone is placed in the order by points, and then the factor graph does things that are too complicated to simplify. It's more or less "loss against everyone you lost to and win against everyone you beat", but that's a rough estimation (to be honest, just a guess to the right direction). Play around with [url=http://atom.research.microsoft.com/trueskill/rankcalculator.aspx]this[/url] to see how it works. [quote]2. So how does the skill calculate when you have some players who quit the game? is it like the Gears of War 2 where for instance if you were playing a team game 5 vs 5, and 2 people from my team quit and lost. At the end we lost to the 5 people opponent team, but won against 2 people who quit? What about in FFA?[/quote]In team games, quitting does not effect anything. The teams win and lose as a team; that means a quitter will go up if his team wins. The TrueSkill guys have developed a "partial-play" system, but it wasn't ready for Halo 3. Both the partial play and no partial play systems are accurate in their own way, and pp is more prone to abuse in visible-rank games. In FFA, the quitters are ranked below the other players, and amongst themselves ranked by points, after which the skills are updated as usual. [quote]3. So how many games do we need to play in order to settle down the sigma and mu? I thought it was at least 100 games, so I'm playing Lone Wolves 100 and Team Slayer 100 in order to see my "True" Skill. does it vary depending on the player? since sigma value is versatile?[/quote]50-100 according to the bungie pdf. For an average player, lieutenant means that his skill is certainly stabilized. [Edited on 10.15.2009 11:06 AM PDT]
-
Hello, I believe that FFA is the best correlation that could relate to the TrueSkill. Because for a team game such as TS, its all based on luck. I do have a question though 1. How does FFA account for TrueSkill? What do they look for instead of just Wins/Losses and the skill levels of the players? For FFA, do they look for the numbers you were placed after the game? 2. So how does the skill calculate when you have some players who quit the game? is it like the Gears of War 2 where for instance if you were playing a team game 5 vs 5, and 2 people from my team quit and lost. At the end we lost to the 5 people opponent team, but won against 2 people who quit? What about in FFA? 3. So how many games do we need to play in order to settle down the sigma and mu? I thought it was at least 100 games, so I'm playing Lone Wolves 100 and Team Slayer 100 in order to see my "True" Skill. does it vary depending on the player? since sigma value is versatile? You need to help me with this. thanks [Edited on 10.15.2009 10:19 AM PDT]
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OMGiTzSquintz Soo... I was playing doubles with my roommate, we started form Rank 0 both of us.
[/quote]Playing all of your games with the same teammate when starting a new list is your problem. Play 4 or 5 games with a random or other friend who has played a lot, then team back up and you will level normally. More detailed explanations can be found on every other page of this thread if you want more info. -
i won 17 of 20 matches in team swat and only got from 2 to 5 in rank and i haz 17 xp in it and i beat sum pro teams with high levels wtf?????
-
Soo... I was playing doubles with my roommate, we started form Rank 0 both of us. We got to rank 14 (losing only 5 games out of 16. Then from that moment on, we had a 40 game streak of winning. I would say that's pretty consistant... Now, can someone explain to me why we ranked up to a level 23 easily (within 6-7 games), then didn't rank up for 5 games, then ranked up to a 28 (within 5 games), then didn't rank up again for 14 games? And after that spree was over, the first time we lost after 40 games in a row... we ranked down. That's messed up.
-
Does exp matter in this. Cause I have like 2735 exp and like it takes forever to go up
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] E60MkNeelz360 I see people who have negative 380 xp. Is that because their sigma is high and they basically level every time after a win? [/quote]Without getting it to a lot of the details, you can increase your sigma for a playlist by quitting hundreds of games in that playlist. This will not help this person gain skill levels quicker once they stop quitting. It does however help pull "high quality" matches when teaming up with a new account. This will "boost" the new account up quickly. It really is only effective for small team lists - AKA Team Doubles. Simply quitting a bunch of social games will do nothing for you when playing ranked lists as EXP has no direct correlation to the skill system.
-
Very interesting and informative, not that simple but i still get the picture ok and this explains a lot to me now. Nice work!
-
I see people who have negative 380 xp. Is that because their sigma is high and they basically level every time after a win?
-
Great post. Really informative.