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#Halo

11/12/2007 9:22:18 PM
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In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

[b]I am NOT an employee of Bungie nor one of Microsoft, and my views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of either of the aforementioned entities. Also, thanks for sticking this Bungie, I hope it is useful.[/b] There is one caveat to consider before we get under weigh. Bungie is not likely, nor or ever, to release the true inner workings of the Halo 3 ranking system, but as it is based somewhat on the Microsoft Trueskill system, this is a fair approximation of the way skill ranking works in Halo 3. [quote][i][b]What is the Trueskill system?[/b][/i][/quote] The Trueskill system is a player skill rating system for Xbox Live. Halo 3 uses a version of the Trueskill system in order to make the matches fairly even. [quote][i][b]How Does Trueskill Work?[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill assigns skills on a normal distribution (bell curve, Gaussian). The Trueskill system has two main variables to consider. They are your player skill level ([b]Mu[/b]) and your uncertainty factor ([b]Sigma[/b]). [b]Mu[/b] is an approximation of your skill level based upon past performance. Win games to raise Mu, and lose games to lower Mu. [b]Sigma[/b] is the numerical representation of the range in which your [i]true[/i] skill could lie. Play really consistently, and you have a low Sigma. Play streakily, and you have a higher Sigma. After a win, the Trueskill system adjusts your skill ranking based upon the Mu and Sigma of all the players in the game. We'll go deeper into [i]how much[/i] it is adjusted later. Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game. [quote][i][b]Why don't I level up after winning X games in a row? / Why does my friend go up three levels a game and I don't?[/b][/i][/quote] Mu increases after a win. Always. [b]The increase is proportional to the winner's Sigma and the Mu difference between the winner and the loser.[/b] So, if your Sigma is high, you will proceed faster through the ranking system (in BOTH directions). If your Sigma is low, you will both gain and lose rank more slowly. [quote][i][b]So, I want a high Sigma value?[/b][/i][/quote] While it sounds as though a high Sigma value is desirable, it CAN be a double edged sword. A high Sigma can mean you increase by one level for every win. It also means you decrease by one level for every loss. In addition, a high Sigma means that your skill ranking will be significantly lower than your actual skill owing to the conservative nature of the [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] ranking equation. Also, Sigma value starts out VERY high. So, if this is your friend's first time in a particular ranked hopper, and he wins consistently, his rank will rise meteorically due to his high Sigma. [quote][i][b]Myth Busting[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill DOES NOT take into evaluation performances inside the game. The ONLY statistics that Trueskill takes from a game are the Mu and Sigma values of all the players, and how you placed. This means that out of all of these statistics: Getting the MVP Having a High K/D ratio Getting the most medals Skill levels of those you killed / killed you Weapons you used Headshots Captures, detonations, stops, ousts, etc. NONE of them matter when calculating the Mu increase/decrease. Any link between any of these and the skill ratings are purely correlative and not causative. For example. When I play Team Slayer with my buddies on my alternate gamertag, much of the time I end up carrying the team. I created this tag to play with my buddies, and as such, have only ever played on that party with that tag. I ranked up to the level of my friends within 20 or so games, while it had taken them 50 to 100 games to reach their level. My friends thought that it was because of my frequent MVP status and my high K/D ratio that I leveled up so fast. Wrong. I leveled up fast because [b]A)[/b] I initially had a very high Sigma, making my Mu more variable after each win, [b]B)[/b] Starting out at a 1 and playing people in the mid teens gave me a considerable boost every time I won, and [b]C)[/b] We won more frequently than they had in the past. [quote][i][b]Summation[/b][/i][/quote] If you're worried that you're not getting your fair shake in the ranking system, look at the last 50 games that you've played in that hopper. (If you haven't played 50 games, play more. The system needs more data.) Take your win/loss average. If it's 65% or above, and you've been in that playlist for a while, you've probably increased in level 2 or more times over the last 50 games (or you will in the next 20 or so). Otherwise you are going to be hovering around the same level or dropping in rank. [quote][i][b]Addendum, Opinion, and Technical Notes[/b][/i][/quote] In strict Trueskill systems, Sigma only decreases. I believe the "momentum" system in Halo 3 means that Sigma can be increased through consistent winning or losing. This is total conjecture, but I think that Sigma in Halo 3 matchmaking hoppers is proportional to the absolute value of the win/loss ratio of your last X number of games. The formula probably looks a little like: [b]Sigma = C ( | wins - losses | )[/b] where C is an arbitrary constant. This would explain why when some people go on a win streak with two or more different parties, their skill goes up faster than their teammates' skill. I also believe that the system is weighted so that the peak of the normal distribution is around level 20, not level 25. That means it will take more wins to level through 1-25 than it will 25-50. Which makes a bit of sense, if you don't want the highest levels too terribly crowded. [b]The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.[/b] Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up. Trueskill ratings have no discernable correlation from hopper to hopper. When you play on a hopper you've never played on before, you are starting with a fresh Mu and a high Sigma. Team Mu and Team Sigma are the summation of the Mu and Sigma values of all the players on the team. When calculating the skill of an opponent in a team game, the system uses the Team Mu and Team Sigma values in calculation wherever rational. *Removed equations for space. They can be found in the link below.* [url=http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx#How_to_Update_Skills]The rest of the equations and a less Halo 3 centric analysis of the Trueskill system can be found here.[/url] _________________________________________________________ [b]Important additions, Appendices, and Member Questions Answered[/b] _________________________________________________________ [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14457003]In-depth response to a post LoveNub made later in this thread. Should clear things up for some.[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/createpost.aspx?postID=14504550]More data analyzed, and a request for help with research[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471689]Kudos to Jay120171 for finding the post detailing the Mixed Party Bug in matchmaking.[/url] [quote][i][b]"Why do I win 10 games and not level up, then delevel when I lose 2? Help!"[/b][/i][/quote] There are several possible explanations for this. The easiest one, and the one that fits the Trueskill system EXACTLY as explained by Microsoft, is that losing against a team that is X (I believe 6 or more, but experimentation is needed to determine the true value) skill points below you can cause you to lose as much as [b]5 times[/b] the Mu value that winning against even level teams gains you. Of course, winning against a team that has X [i]more[/i] skill levels than you can net you as much as 5 times the Mu gain. The reverse is true as well. Winning against a weak team can count as little as 1/5th of an even skill win. Second, and this is enlightened conjecture, your Sigma value was low at the beginning of your streak, and since your win streak is raising it, the conservative ranking system (Remember, Rank = Mu MINUS (K times Sigma)) is kicking in to reduce your apparent skill level. Your real Mu is higher, but your higher Sigma is having a negative impact. [quote][b]mo0vaf00 writes:[/b] (edited to clarify intent) So is there some kind of value that requires you to be inconsistent to rank up? If I win 1 game going even and win the next going +10 do I have more of a chance of ranking up than just winning 2 games getting the same score?[/quote] This conclusion is popping up fairly frequently. The answer is no. The system does not look at "In Match" statistics. At all. These stats are all included in a list above. The game only looks at your wins and your losses, and the strength of the opponents you play against. Also, the system does not "reward" you for having a high Sigma value. There is ONE positive associated with high Sigma, and there are TWO negatives. Positive: Your level can move up faster through winning. Negative: Your level can move down faster through losing. Negative: The conservative ranking system ranks you lower when your Sigma is higher. Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving. [Edited on 11.24.2007 11:54 PM PST]
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#Halo #Halo3

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TransparentBlak I just want a bar that shows progress toward levelup, just like in halo 2[/quote]A progress bar doesn't make much sense for this system. Halo 2 used a linear system and you earned points for winning. It was easy to show your progress and you could generally tell what it would take to level up. Halo 3's system isn't linear. You could potentially jump/drop multiple levels at a time. After each win or loss your level is simply updated to reflect what level the system thinks you might be. There really is no progress to show like there was in Halo 2.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Psmo290 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lilsteve61 Can you please explain to me why in the past 20 games(that wev'e one more than half of) i've played with one of my other friends who is very similar in skill and hes has gone up three an i've only went down one on a game that we won? what the heck does this mean? [/quote] your friend went up 3 lvs, and you didn't because he has a better KDR than you. Yours is at .94 while he's at 1.05. Also, he played less games than you so far so his sigma is a bit higher.[/quote]No, K/D ratio has nothing to do with it. In game stats are not used to calculate leveling. However, the last part of that statment is correct. [b]To Lilsteve61[/b] You and your friend have different histories. It doesn't matter that you were at the same level. Each of you got there different ways and so you are going to level at different rates. As far as the win that moved you down a level. You had two DNF's before that win. DNF's don't count until the game is over so the effect of the result can be delayed. Most likely it was the two prior losses that sent you down, but the effect was just delayed and you saw it after the win. [Edited on 12.09.2007 1:33 PM PST]

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  • Join my group "Epic Halo"

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  • I just want a bar that shows progress toward levelup, just like in halo 2

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  • yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu are -blam!- hahahaaha

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lilsteve61 Can you please explain to me why in the past 20 games(that wev'e one more than half of) i've played with one of my other friends who is very similar in skill and hes has gone up three an i've only went down one on a game that we won? what the heck does this mean? [/quote] your friend went up 3 lvs, and you didn't because he has a better KDR than you. Yours is at .94 while he's at 1.05. Also, he played less games than you so far so his sigma is a bit higher.

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  • Can you please explain to me why in the past 20 games(that wev'e one more than half of) i've played with one of my other friends who is very similar in skill and hes has gone up three an i've only went down one on a game that we won? what the heck does this mean?

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  • One star: Major Two star: Commander Three star: Colonel ...for that person that didn't know.

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  • who cares how they rank it. if your any good at all you will level up just play the game and have fun.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LAXICE23 You have an experience penelty of -104. You get penalized every time you quit (or get disconnected). Basically anytime you don't finish a matchmaking game normally you get a penelty. You've earned 46 experience but after subracting the penelty you have -58. So basically at this point you won't see a rank change until you've won about 60 more games, assuming you don't have any more penelties along the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^what twofaced said yah may be true but i have proof its not workin, get this. i played today in rumble pit with my friend at his house with MY account and won about 6 games. we lost about 2 then won like 7 more. all day we did this and what? i check my stats later, HAS NOT MOVED. not even like -42 or anything higer. check out my profile. i might have not won that many games as i said but won i lost, i came in second and social games move you up it exp. whoever is in first OR second. and it STILL doesnt explain y i have the security shoulders and why other achievements didnt register. i no twofaced has 519 gamerpoints but does he have the shoulders? no he doesnt. but what he DOES have is the basic training achievement which i DONT have, but i have the pin on the game. look at my service record. also provin my point, i dont suk, 46 exp on the first day thatn you very much. reply...[/quote]Everything is working fine. Just crunch the numbers to prove it. You don't need to guess. I checked your stats at 6:37 PM last night. You had an experience penelty of -104. You now have a penelty of -113 so that's 9 more penelties then the last time I checked. Looking at your games played since then you've played at total of 27 matchmaking games. You should have earned 13 experience during those games. 13 - 9 = 4. So your gain in experience since last night when I checked should be 4. Looking at your experience now you have -54 which is exactly 4 more then -58 which is where it was last night. The math all checks out. You are getting all the experience you deserve. If you are quiting games then stop. If you are having internet difficulties then try to work them out. There is nothing wrong with your experience.

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  • Thanks for this, it rly helps.

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  • Ferrex (aka Tyson Green) is a multiplayer designer at Bungie and he posted the quote above in the optimatch forum a while back. I noticed over the last 50 games or so you were often in mixed parties. Probably more often then not you were the high rank too. The issue with mixed parties could be causing slower ranking then normal. Also the system doesn't give you as much credit for playing lower ranks. Pairing with lower party members generally means on average you will play lower ranks then yourself which doesn't benefit you as much. Those are the things most likely effecting you.[/quote] I appreciate the reply and yes sometimes I am playing with lower lvls. On the other hand most of the time Im not, for example for a long time I was playing with 2 38s and a 34 all ranked higher than me.

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  • You have an experience penelty of -104. You get penalized every time you quit (or get disconnected). Basically anytime you don't finish a matchmaking game normally you get a penelty. You've earned 46 experience but after subracting the penelty you have -58. So basically at this point you won't see a rank change until you've won about 60 more games, assuming you don't have any more penelties along the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^what twofaced said yah may be true but i have proof its not workin, get this. i played today in rumble pit with my friend at his house with MY account and won about 6 games. we lost about 2 then won like 7 more. all day we did this and what? i check my stats later, HAS NOT MOVED. not even like -42 or anything higer. check out my profile. i might have not won that many games as i said but won i lost, i came in second and social games move you up it exp. whoever is in first OR second. and it STILL doesnt explain y i have the security shoulders and why other achievements didnt register. i no twofaced has 519 gamerpoints but does he have the shoulders? no he doesnt. but what he DOES have is the basic training achievement which i DONT have, but i have the pin on the game. look at my service record. also provin my point, i dont suk, 46 exp on the first day thatn you very much. reply... [Edited on 12.08.2007 3:12 PM PST]

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  • I know what you mean. I was playing with my friend who just started live and hes a 30 now in 20 games. I was a 25 and am now a 27. Because of my many games played I can't level. It gets frustrating having no room for improvement because if he is a 30 and could easily get 40 soon I should be able to get that high too if I did just as well as him.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BlueblurONE Its sad that a user has to post this instead of an actual Bungie employer. Bungie am fail.[/quote]All the information comes from Microsoft. There is a publicly available paper on TrueSkill and how it works which is linked by the OP. So a write up really isn't necessary as it's already available. Bungie may have taken a few liberties of there own, but the heart of the system is described in that paper. However, a nudge in the right direction by Bungie may have reduced some of the initial confusion. [Edited on 12.08.2007 2:27 PM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jay120171 It never ends does it TwoFaced? [/quote]19 pages and going strong :) I'd rather the questions be here though then all over the forums.

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  • Its sad that a user has to post this instead of an actual Bungie employer. Bungie am fail.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quantum Oddity I am really trying not to complain. I read the whole explaination of the ranking system that was posted and I checked my last 50 team slayer ranked games. After that I find I am more frustrated than ever. Out of 50 team slayer matches I have only lost 4, I am not ranking up and its really starting to anger me. Bungie plz explain why this is happening. [/quote]I think two things could be happening here. It's hard for me to determine your history because of how spread out your Team Slayer games are, but perhaps you have an idea. How long did it take you to reach your current level? Did you seem to get there fast or was it a fairly slow journey with a fair number of losses. The longer it takes you the more sure the system becomes and you start to rank slower. This could certainly be part of the puzzle. The other problem might have to do with this: [quote]Posted By: Ferrex - [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471827]Source[/url] [b]How? What are you fixing?[/b] First, there is a general matchmaking issue affecting parties of mixed skill levels, which slows (or halts) the progress of players in those parties. This is made worse in large teams, and doubly so in Social playlists were skill levels are not displayed. Top men at Bungie are investigating the cause for this issue (tentatively identified as an unintentionally vigorous guard against boosting exploits that were a problem in Halo 2) and effective fixes for it. All of our playlists will benefit from dialing this in, as soon as we feel good about the changes.[/quote] Ferrex (aka Tyson Green) is a multiplayer designer at Bungie and he posted the quote above in the optimatch forum a while back. I noticed over the last 50 games or so you were often in mixed parties. Probably more often then not you were the high rank too. The issue with mixed parties could be causing slower ranking then normal. Also the system doesn't give you as much credit for playing lower ranks. Pairing with lower party members generally means on average you will play lower ranks then yourself which doesn't benefit you as much. Those are the things most likely effecting you.

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  • very true, well done.

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  • it's one star (something) , two star (commander), then three star (colonel)

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  • It means that if you reach 300 xp without highest skill 30, you will rank up to grade 3 captain, but if you reach highest skill 30 at and point you will become a... whatever the star is (i should know, since that's what rank i am)

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  • which one is first commander are colonel?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jay120171 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lt Chaise Ok, I think I understand that part, but what about this. I'm going to use an example here and say you need 300 exp to be promoted to Commander Grade 2, but 250 exp to be promoted to Colonel Grade 1. If the exp needed for a total differnet rank is lower then the exp needed for another grade of a lower rank, then is it possible to get to get that next grade of the lower rank, even if you have the exp to be promoted to the next different rank?[/quote] I think I understand but here is how it works. For example, you would need 250 EXP AND a Highest Skill of 40 to get the next rank. If you don't get the skill of 40 then you just get Grade increases like Grade 2 and so on.[/quote] That's what I originally thought, but when I looked at the service record on this site, it said the person needed, for example, 300 exp OR skill 30. But I may have read it wrong.

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  • Wow you checked all those games lol. The thing is though I am winning 1 or 2 games then ranking up whereas with the Mental Me account I had won something like 20 games and never ranked up. I know what you mean though about the lower ranks and personally I am fed up with it that people are bringing lower ranks into my games who cant handle the pace or the other team have lower levels that are really really good which means I lose more rank points :-(

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TwoFaced1680 The TrueSkill system is actually supposed to be an improvement in this area. It allows for better players to rank more quickly so they have to play fewer games to get up high. I'm not sure if you played Halo 2 online but basically there was a set number of games you had to play to make it to your level. There was no way for better players to speed through the ranks. However, TrueSkill allows players to move pretty fast early on and even skip ranks. I'm not sure I really agree here. There are a couple issues that have caused some people to rank slower then they should, but I don't think it's related to how fast Sigma drops. These issues are being looked at and will hopefully be fixed. Under normal circumstances I don't think people are getting stuck to early due to Sigma.[/quote] Fewer games, but still too many. Like I've explained, very often it feels like I'm that stepping stone for someone that hasn't yet reached their "tru skill". A few of my losses can be attributed to genuine good matches, but I still end up fighting a lot of people that get 20+ kills out of 50 in a match, suggesting that they are really above and beyond their supposed skill. [quote]I don't think the starting position is a limitation of TrueSkill. I don't see why they can't set it up to start us at 25 or something like that. I think that would be a great idea (at least in theory). You are absolutly right though. 1's are always stepped on by every single person moving up. That is certainly a problem for the lower ranks. I honestly think this is doable under the current system. At this point I'm guessing it wouldn't be changed, but I think it could have been done that way.[/quote] Sure, TruSkill _could_ start at 20 or 25 or whatever and that would give more room for people to compare themselves to the average and prevent below average people from being treated like stepping stones all of the time. The fact it currently starts at 1 does seem like a limitation. Maybe not of the system itself, but definitely of its application. Another interesting note is how so many people try so hard to level up, treating that as the endgoal in itself. People should work on improving their game and seeing their truskill reflect this, as opposed to merely trying to get their truskill up, perhaps artificially so.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TwoFaced1680 I don't think the starting position is a limitation of TrueSkill. I don't see why they can't set it up to start us at 25 or something like that. I think that would be a great idea (at least in theory). You are absolutly right though. 1's are always stepped on by every single person moving up. That is certainly a problem for the lower ranks. I honestly think this is doable under the current system. At this point I'm guessing it wouldn't be changed, but I think it could have been done that way.[/quote] It never ends does it TwoFaced? Anyway, a player will not be a level 1 for more than a few games. The system does MM by more than just your skill level. Initially it also matches players who have a low sigma against players who have a high sigma as "tests" to enable the system to get new players up quickly. For instance, a player who is a 1 with a high sigma matched against a player who is a 5 with a low sigma. Player with 1 wins and gains a lot of mu because the system is pretty certain that the player with a 5 should be a 5 and keeps player 1's sigma high moving him as much as 2 skills. If a player is in the "below average" range of the system, they are going to be a "stepping stone" as the bulk of the players are better than them. If someone is a 10, they will be constantly playing "new" players as those new players move up. If the constant influx of new players slows down, those at the lowest skill levels should start having a better experience.

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