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#Halo

11/12/2007 9:22:18 PM
2607

In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

[b]I am NOT an employee of Bungie nor one of Microsoft, and my views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of either of the aforementioned entities. Also, thanks for sticking this Bungie, I hope it is useful.[/b] There is one caveat to consider before we get under weigh. Bungie is not likely, nor or ever, to release the true inner workings of the Halo 3 ranking system, but as it is based somewhat on the Microsoft Trueskill system, this is a fair approximation of the way skill ranking works in Halo 3. [quote][i][b]What is the Trueskill system?[/b][/i][/quote] The Trueskill system is a player skill rating system for Xbox Live. Halo 3 uses a version of the Trueskill system in order to make the matches fairly even. [quote][i][b]How Does Trueskill Work?[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill assigns skills on a normal distribution (bell curve, Gaussian). The Trueskill system has two main variables to consider. They are your player skill level ([b]Mu[/b]) and your uncertainty factor ([b]Sigma[/b]). [b]Mu[/b] is an approximation of your skill level based upon past performance. Win games to raise Mu, and lose games to lower Mu. [b]Sigma[/b] is the numerical representation of the range in which your [i]true[/i] skill could lie. Play really consistently, and you have a low Sigma. Play streakily, and you have a higher Sigma. After a win, the Trueskill system adjusts your skill ranking based upon the Mu and Sigma of all the players in the game. We'll go deeper into [i]how much[/i] it is adjusted later. Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game. [quote][i][b]Why don't I level up after winning X games in a row? / Why does my friend go up three levels a game and I don't?[/b][/i][/quote] Mu increases after a win. Always. [b]The increase is proportional to the winner's Sigma and the Mu difference between the winner and the loser.[/b] So, if your Sigma is high, you will proceed faster through the ranking system (in BOTH directions). If your Sigma is low, you will both gain and lose rank more slowly. [quote][i][b]So, I want a high Sigma value?[/b][/i][/quote] While it sounds as though a high Sigma value is desirable, it CAN be a double edged sword. A high Sigma can mean you increase by one level for every win. It also means you decrease by one level for every loss. In addition, a high Sigma means that your skill ranking will be significantly lower than your actual skill owing to the conservative nature of the [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] ranking equation. Also, Sigma value starts out VERY high. So, if this is your friend's first time in a particular ranked hopper, and he wins consistently, his rank will rise meteorically due to his high Sigma. [quote][i][b]Myth Busting[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill DOES NOT take into evaluation performances inside the game. The ONLY statistics that Trueskill takes from a game are the Mu and Sigma values of all the players, and how you placed. This means that out of all of these statistics: Getting the MVP Having a High K/D ratio Getting the most medals Skill levels of those you killed / killed you Weapons you used Headshots Captures, detonations, stops, ousts, etc. NONE of them matter when calculating the Mu increase/decrease. Any link between any of these and the skill ratings are purely correlative and not causative. For example. When I play Team Slayer with my buddies on my alternate gamertag, much of the time I end up carrying the team. I created this tag to play with my buddies, and as such, have only ever played on that party with that tag. I ranked up to the level of my friends within 20 or so games, while it had taken them 50 to 100 games to reach their level. My friends thought that it was because of my frequent MVP status and my high K/D ratio that I leveled up so fast. Wrong. I leveled up fast because [b]A)[/b] I initially had a very high Sigma, making my Mu more variable after each win, [b]B)[/b] Starting out at a 1 and playing people in the mid teens gave me a considerable boost every time I won, and [b]C)[/b] We won more frequently than they had in the past. [quote][i][b]Summation[/b][/i][/quote] If you're worried that you're not getting your fair shake in the ranking system, look at the last 50 games that you've played in that hopper. (If you haven't played 50 games, play more. The system needs more data.) Take your win/loss average. If it's 65% or above, and you've been in that playlist for a while, you've probably increased in level 2 or more times over the last 50 games (or you will in the next 20 or so). Otherwise you are going to be hovering around the same level or dropping in rank. [quote][i][b]Addendum, Opinion, and Technical Notes[/b][/i][/quote] In strict Trueskill systems, Sigma only decreases. I believe the "momentum" system in Halo 3 means that Sigma can be increased through consistent winning or losing. This is total conjecture, but I think that Sigma in Halo 3 matchmaking hoppers is proportional to the absolute value of the win/loss ratio of your last X number of games. The formula probably looks a little like: [b]Sigma = C ( | wins - losses | )[/b] where C is an arbitrary constant. This would explain why when some people go on a win streak with two or more different parties, their skill goes up faster than their teammates' skill. I also believe that the system is weighted so that the peak of the normal distribution is around level 20, not level 25. That means it will take more wins to level through 1-25 than it will 25-50. Which makes a bit of sense, if you don't want the highest levels too terribly crowded. [b]The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.[/b] Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up. Trueskill ratings have no discernable correlation from hopper to hopper. When you play on a hopper you've never played on before, you are starting with a fresh Mu and a high Sigma. Team Mu and Team Sigma are the summation of the Mu and Sigma values of all the players on the team. When calculating the skill of an opponent in a team game, the system uses the Team Mu and Team Sigma values in calculation wherever rational. *Removed equations for space. They can be found in the link below.* [url=http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx#How_to_Update_Skills]The rest of the equations and a less Halo 3 centric analysis of the Trueskill system can be found here.[/url] _________________________________________________________ [b]Important additions, Appendices, and Member Questions Answered[/b] _________________________________________________________ [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14457003]In-depth response to a post LoveNub made later in this thread. Should clear things up for some.[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/createpost.aspx?postID=14504550]More data analyzed, and a request for help with research[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471689]Kudos to Jay120171 for finding the post detailing the Mixed Party Bug in matchmaking.[/url] [quote][i][b]"Why do I win 10 games and not level up, then delevel when I lose 2? Help!"[/b][/i][/quote] There are several possible explanations for this. The easiest one, and the one that fits the Trueskill system EXACTLY as explained by Microsoft, is that losing against a team that is X (I believe 6 or more, but experimentation is needed to determine the true value) skill points below you can cause you to lose as much as [b]5 times[/b] the Mu value that winning against even level teams gains you. Of course, winning against a team that has X [i]more[/i] skill levels than you can net you as much as 5 times the Mu gain. The reverse is true as well. Winning against a weak team can count as little as 1/5th of an even skill win. Second, and this is enlightened conjecture, your Sigma value was low at the beginning of your streak, and since your win streak is raising it, the conservative ranking system (Remember, Rank = Mu MINUS (K times Sigma)) is kicking in to reduce your apparent skill level. Your real Mu is higher, but your higher Sigma is having a negative impact. [quote][b]mo0vaf00 writes:[/b] (edited to clarify intent) So is there some kind of value that requires you to be inconsistent to rank up? If I win 1 game going even and win the next going +10 do I have more of a chance of ranking up than just winning 2 games getting the same score?[/quote] This conclusion is popping up fairly frequently. The answer is no. The system does not look at "In Match" statistics. At all. These stats are all included in a list above. The game only looks at your wins and your losses, and the strength of the opponents you play against. Also, the system does not "reward" you for having a high Sigma value. There is ONE positive associated with high Sigma, and there are TWO negatives. Positive: Your level can move up faster through winning. Negative: Your level can move down faster through losing. Negative: The conservative ranking system ranks you lower when your Sigma is higher. Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving. [Edited on 11.24.2007 11:54 PM PST]
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#Halo #Halo3

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tronix1 [quote]A quit/disconnect would be treated as a loss in any FFA game and also if your team loses. A loss is a definate loss in sigma as well. However, in a team game if your team still wins, you get a win, so it would not drop your sigma by much.[/quote] So even though people have low experience due to quiting, their sigma should still be low. Got it! Do you think the game goes to a default sigma if a player is at 0 exp? [/quote] Well not exactly. If people quit team games yet their team wins, they don't get a loss, and therefore don't lose as much sigma as they would ion a loss. There is a minimum sigma in the game yes, Bungie doesn't allow it to go to 0.

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  • the only question that i have is that how can u tell someone has won more frequently than you. other than that i understand a bit more

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  • so we won 17 games in a row in team slayer last night, with only like 2 games where i had - k/d. played all people of around the same rank, yet only moved up from skill 20 to 21. also we beat msot teams like 50 to 9. still barely any skill ups, what gives?

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  • [quote]A quit/disconnect would be treated as a loss in any FFA game and also if your team loses. A loss is a definate loss in sigma as well. However, in a team game if your team still wins, you get a win, so it would not drop your sigma by much.[/quote] So even though people have low experience due to quiting, their sigma should still be low. Got it! Do you think the game goes to a default sigma if a player is at 0 exp?

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  • Can you look at my halo games and tell me why Im not leveling in lone wolves? Im a level 45 and I played all night/morning to try to gain just on level but wasn't able to do so. I got more 1st and 2nds than any other places. Do i need to continuously get first to gain levels?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CornetoGospel Great topic...a few questions though. Ive noticed that if im on a winning streak, I go up quite quickly(most of the time ive got the most kills, irellevant i know, but still). However Ive noticed that Asists have a bigger part to play than K/D ration in a game. For example, in the games below.. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402189384&player=CornettoGospel]game 1[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402196082&player=CornettoGospel]game 2[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402203346&player=CornettoGospel]game 3[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402211399&player=CornettoGospel]game 4[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402220553&player=CornettoGospel]game 5[/url] In each of the games, I was significantly the highest skilled player via rank in each game. So it should be harder for me to go up right?. Well in 5 games i went up 3 levels (from a 35 to a 38). And in 4/5 of those games i got the highest number of kills and/or asists on my team, and i didnt go negative in any of the games (irrelavant i know). So, does this mean my sigma is high because i went up so quickly, or is it low because i played consistently? (comparing myself to LoveNub, i feel that i shouldnt have gone up so quickly, but hey, i did) [/quote] You sigma is still reasonably high thats all

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  • Great topic...a few questions though. Ive noticed that if im on a winning streak, I go up quite quickly(most of the time ive got the most kills, irellevant i know, but still). However Ive noticed that Asists have a bigger part to play than K/D ration in a game. For example, in the games below.. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402189384&player=CornettoGospel]game 1[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402196082&player=CornettoGospel]game 2[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402203346&player=CornettoGospel]game 3[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402211399&player=CornettoGospel]game 4[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=402220553&player=CornettoGospel]game 5[/url] In each of the games, I was significantly the highest skilled player via rank in each game. So it should be harder for me to go up right?. Well in 5 games i went up 3 levels (from a 35 to a 38). And in 4/5 of those games i got the highest number of kills and/or asists on my team, and i didnt go negative in any of the games (irrelavant i know). So, does this mean my sigma is high because i went up so quickly, or is it low because i played consistently? (comparing myself to LoveNub, i feel that i shouldnt have gone up so quickly, but hey, i did)

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  • Ahh thanks for the input, nice thread btw.

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  • I've got one more question. I just leveled up to a 48 after about 25 games (didn't win thme all but about 70%), but got standbyed the game after then lost the next and deleveled back to a 47. Is it possible to get back to 48 with 2 or 3 straight wins against people my level?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Singing Penguin I've got a question, I havent played team slayer in a while and have started to play again. I'm at a 47 and have been there for a long time now. I win about 60% of my games but recently have been winning about 70% of my games. All of these were against players about my level. Does this mean that I'm gunna be stuck at a 47 forever?[/quote] If you are winning 70% you should rank up slowly still. In theory, if you are winning 51-55% of your games you should still rank up. You may have low sigma, which means you may need 10+ wins or more to get any rank up.

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  • I've got a question, I havent played team slayer in a while and have started to play again. I'm at a 47 and have been there for a long time now. I win about 60% of my games but recently have been winning about 70% of my games. All of these were against players about my level. Does this mean that I'm gunna be stuck at a 47 forever?

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  • well thoughtout

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LikeItGreen So my question is how does that whole system go into effect if say u have played nothing but team slayer and are ranked a 40-50, with high sigma, how would that effect playing say double team on the same acount in which ur a lvl 1? Is your Sigma still high for that game type or since u havnt played a single game of double team does that mean ur starting over with a clean slate, same sigma and Mu that you had when u first started playing team slayer?[/quote] Sigma is by playlist only...a fresh start.

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  • Hey Jay Just as an aside, I have been testing out a new account ( II Baaaaaaah II ) for a variety of reasons. First, I wanted to see if my Team Slayer rank was truely far below where I felt my actual skill level was. I was/am almost positive about this, since I typically play customs with 45-50's and can hold my own, yet my TS rank has been 28 and impossible to move for 4 months or so (I figure my real overall true skill is in the 43-47 range based on customs, so my TS rank should not be too far off from that). As well, my TS rank was 12 below my LW's rank, which I feel I can level a further 5 levels even from here. That would be quite the disparity between LW's and TS ranks...something I feel would be innaccurate. My main account had played 700-800 games of Team Slayer when the game first came out, and I had played in a lot of mixed parties with the same people. Long story short, I played with crappy friends for a long time AND I sucked when I started and my skill has changed significantly since the game first came out. Second, I wanted to see how playing in a mixed party/same people will affect progression and sigma after about 50-75 games, rather than right near the beginning when we know it has its major stalling effects. Obviously I am playing in a mixed party that wins 95% of games when I play with them. As expected, here is what I found so far: 1) the ranking progress slowed once I started playing with the same people 2) when I switch it up and play with randoms, the ranking continues reasonably quickly. This confirms my sigma is staying reasonably high while I win with the mixed party/same people. I even wonder if it increases my sigma slightly because I think I am close to 100 games in that playlist, so my ranking ability should have stalled much mroe than it has. 3) the system "remembers" that you have played with certain people. Obviously this is not actually remembering, but something to do with higher sigma between all of the parties. After a good amount of games with randoms, I returned to the mixed party and my ranking would not move even with a reasonably large winning streak with them. 4) I surpassed my ranking from my original account in only a couple of days, even with the mixed party stalling. I probably could have surpassed it in less than 40-60 games total. I suspect I will be able to surpass my old account's TS rank by 15-17 levels when I am done. Really shows the effects of low sigma. Neither you nor I have ever been an advocate of starting new accounts to circumvent sigma, but in my case it seems to be worthwhile. I'll let you know once it has stalled out and we can look at it more in depth. [Edited on 04.06.2008 9:39 AM PDT]

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  • So my question is how does that whole system go into effect if say u have played nothing but team slayer and are ranked a 40-50, with high sigma, how would that effect playing say double team on the same acount in which ur a lvl 1? Is your Sigma still high for that game type or since u havnt played a single game of double team does that mean ur starting over with a clean slate, same sigma and Mu that you had when u first started playing team slayer?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XGC Fingaz OK, So I understand at least the general concept of the explanation... But can someone explain why I just won 30 games in a row in Team Slayer on my new account (XGC Fingaz v2) vs. all higher ranks than me and only went up to a level 5... Including winning 26 or so in a row at level 5 without getting a 6... please explain that to me... thanks, [/quote] 1) Mixed party 2) Playing with the same people Please read back a few pages, yo uare a textbook example.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Impement01 Great post. I was interested, i was playibg Lone Wolves at 14 skill and i won 3 matches, and after those three matches my skill level in Lone Wolves was 18.... how does that work? Does it take into account your win streak/MVP streak/ highest medal scoring streak into account?[/quote] No, you simply have low sigma. You also got some good matchmaking quality...something that will deteriorate the higher you get. Ranking is usually faster at lower at levels below 20, regardless of sigma, for this very reason. The opposite can be said above level 40.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] arranf117 I want to change my rank, I've been stuck at 31 for well over 3 months now but since I suck at Lone Wolves now I need a new way to go up. In the MLG playlist I seem to be moving at a snails pace. Why is this if it is so new?[/quote] You are losing more than half of your games in MLG, thats why it is slow.

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  • OK, So I understand at least the general concept of the explanation... But can someone explain why I just won 30 games in a row in Team Slayer on my new account (XGC Fingaz v2) vs. all higher ranks than me and only went up to a level 5... Including winning 26 or so in a row at level 5 without getting a 6... please explain that to me... thanks,

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  • Great post. I was interested, i was playibg Lone Wolves at 14 skill and i won 3 matches, and after those three matches my skill level in Lone Wolves was 18.... how does that work? Does it take into account your win streak/MVP streak/ highest medal scoring streak into account?

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  • I want to change my rank, I've been stuck at 31 for well over 3 months now but since I suck at Lone Wolves now I need a new way to go up. In the MLG playlist I seem to be moving at a snails pace. Why is this if it is so new?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] l PR Power l - So do would I level faster if I remained a captain rather than graduate to major because my stigma would be higher or is that irrelevant. - Also why is it that when for example, I was playing doubles and before the match started both opponents quit, and my partner and I double leveled, why is that? [/quote] Captain vs Major doesn't matter...EXP has no direct correlation to Sigma. People quitting just coutns as a win, you must just have high sigma still and can double rank.

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  • - So do would I level faster if I remained a captain rather than graduate to major because my stigma would be higher or is that irrelevant. - Also why is it that when for example, I was playing doubles and before the match started both opponents quit, and my partner and I double leveled, why is that?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spiiikes [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spiiikes Hi. My gamertag is spiiikes. I recently got my 49 in Team Slayer with a game on Construct, with this [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419509542&player=spiiikes]game[/url]. That was on the 2nd of this month. Since then, I have won 54 Team Slayer games and lost 10, and I'm still not a General. And yes, my friends and I did play other [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419742847&player=spiiikes]50s[/url], more [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419766862&player=spiiikes]50s[/url], and more [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419630881&player=spiiikes]50s[/url]. Some games were [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=421423074&player=spiiikes]close[/url], others [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=421451213&player=spiiikes]easy[/url] and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=421330670&player=spiiikes]quick[/url]. Even got [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419686729&player=spiiikes]standbyed[/url] (by aikjqtsz) though kept on going. My recent losses were to three AR matches, one in which my teammate got kicked off and the other where it was lagging. I've been playing and trying, but it just doesn't go up.[/quote] You keep playing with the same guys. That is likely slowing your progress. I don't typically see people get stalled at 49 due to this...usually people in the 10-20 range. However, change up your teammates and maybe that will help. I took a peek at your games as well...you had a big win steak yes. However, for some reaosn Bungie gave you a bunch of poor matchmaking quality games. Although you did play some other Generals, I saw a large number of games where you played guys 3-6 ranks lower than your team. My advice...one or two wins with a different team and you will be gold.[/quote] Wow, I tried just that and went in by myself. I won three in a row and got it. Thanks for your post; I almost lost hope.[/quote] Its nice to hear about results. If it helps even just a few people this whole thread is worth it.

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  • thx flyingice for the answer to that but im still confused about all this Mu and sigma stuff. none of it means anything but i will take ur word for it

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spiiikes Hi. My gamertag is spiiikes. I recently got my 49 in Team Slayer with a game on Construct, with this [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419509542&player=spiiikes]game[/url]. That was on the 2nd of this month. Since then, I have won 54 Team Slayer games and lost 10, and I'm still not a General. And yes, my friends and I did play other [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419742847&player=spiiikes]50s[/url], more [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419766862&player=spiiikes]50s[/url], and more [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419630881&player=spiiikes]50s[/url]. Some games were [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=421423074&player=spiiikes]close[/url], others [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=421451213&player=spiiikes]easy[/url] and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=421330670&player=spiiikes]quick[/url]. Even got [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=419686729&player=spiiikes]standbyed[/url] (by aikjqtsz) though kept on going. My recent losses were to three AR matches, one in which my teammate got kicked off and the other where it was lagging. I've been playing and trying, but it just doesn't go up.[/quote] You keep playing with the same guys. That is likely slowing your progress. I don't typically see people get stalled at 49 due to this...usually people in the 10-20 range. However, change up your teammates and maybe that will help. I took a peek at your games as well...you had a big win steak yes. However, for some reaosn Bungie gave you a bunch of poor matchmaking quality games. Although you did play some other Generals, I saw a large number of games where you played guys 3-6 ranks lower than your team. My advice...one or two wins with a different team and you will be gold.[/quote] Wow, I tried just that and went in by myself. I won three in a row and got it. Thanks for your post; I almost lost hope.

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