[b]I am NOT an employee of Bungie nor one of Microsoft, and my views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of either of the aforementioned entities.
Also, thanks for sticking this Bungie, I hope it is useful.[/b]
There is one caveat to consider before we get under weigh. Bungie is not likely, nor or ever, to release the true inner workings of the Halo 3 ranking system, but as it is based somewhat on the Microsoft Trueskill system, this is a fair approximation of the way skill ranking works in Halo 3.
[quote][i][b]What is the Trueskill system?[/b][/i][/quote]
The Trueskill system is a player skill rating system for Xbox Live. Halo 3 uses a version of the Trueskill system in order to make the matches fairly even.
[quote][i][b]How Does Trueskill Work?[/b][/i][/quote]
Trueskill assigns skills on a normal distribution (bell curve, Gaussian). The Trueskill system has two main variables to consider. They are your player skill level ([b]Mu[/b]) and your uncertainty factor ([b]Sigma[/b]).
[b]Mu[/b] is an approximation of your skill level based upon past performance. Win games to raise Mu, and lose games to lower Mu.
[b]Sigma[/b] is the numerical representation of the range in which your [i]true[/i] skill could lie. Play really consistently, and you have a low Sigma. Play streakily, and you have a higher Sigma.
After a win, the Trueskill system adjusts your skill ranking based upon the Mu and Sigma of all the players in the game. We'll go deeper into [i]how much[/i] it is adjusted later.
Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game.
[quote][i][b]Why don't I level up after winning X games in a row? / Why does my friend go up three levels a game and I don't?[/b][/i][/quote]
Mu increases after a win. Always. [b]The increase is proportional to the winner's Sigma and the Mu difference between the winner and the loser.[/b] So, if your Sigma is high, you will proceed faster through the ranking system (in BOTH directions). If your Sigma is low, you will both gain and lose rank more slowly.
[quote][i][b]So, I want a high Sigma value?[/b][/i][/quote]
While it sounds as though a high Sigma value is desirable, it CAN be a double edged sword. A high Sigma can mean you increase by one level for every win. It also means you decrease by one level for every loss. In addition, a high Sigma means that your skill ranking will be significantly lower than your actual skill owing to the conservative nature of the [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] ranking equation.
Also, Sigma value starts out VERY high. So, if this is your friend's first time in a particular ranked hopper, and he wins consistently, his rank will rise meteorically due to his high Sigma.
[quote][i][b]Myth Busting[/b][/i][/quote]
Trueskill DOES NOT take into evaluation performances inside the game. The ONLY statistics that Trueskill takes from a game are the Mu and Sigma values of all the players, and how you placed.
This means that out of all of these statistics:
Getting the MVP
Having a High K/D ratio
Getting the most medals
Skill levels of those you killed / killed you
Weapons you used
Headshots
Captures, detonations, stops, ousts, etc.
NONE of them matter when calculating the Mu increase/decrease. Any link between any of these and the skill ratings are purely correlative and not causative.
For example. When I play Team Slayer with my buddies on my alternate gamertag, much of the time I end up carrying the team. I created this tag to play with my buddies, and as such, have only ever played on that party with that tag. I ranked up to the level of my friends within 20 or so games, while it had taken them 50 to 100 games to reach their level. My friends thought that it was because of my frequent MVP status and my high K/D ratio that I leveled up so fast.
Wrong. I leveled up fast because [b]A)[/b] I initially had a very high Sigma, making my Mu more variable after each win, [b]B)[/b] Starting out at a 1 and playing people in the mid teens gave me a considerable boost every time I won, and [b]C)[/b] We won more frequently than they had in the past.
[quote][i][b]Summation[/b][/i][/quote]
If you're worried that you're not getting your fair shake in the ranking system, look at the last 50 games that you've played in that hopper. (If you haven't played 50 games, play more. The system needs more data.)
Take your win/loss average. If it's 65% or above, and you've been in that playlist for a while, you've probably increased in level 2 or more times over the last 50 games (or you will in the next 20 or so). Otherwise you are going to be hovering around the same level or dropping in rank.
[quote][i][b]Addendum, Opinion, and Technical Notes[/b][/i][/quote]
In strict Trueskill systems, Sigma only decreases. I believe the "momentum" system in Halo 3 means that Sigma can be increased through consistent winning or losing. This is total conjecture, but I think that Sigma in Halo 3 matchmaking hoppers is proportional to the absolute value of the win/loss ratio of your last X number of games. The formula probably looks a little like: [b]Sigma = C ( | wins - losses | )[/b] where C is an arbitrary constant. This would explain why when some people go on a win streak with two or more different parties, their skill goes up faster than their teammates' skill.
I also believe that the system is weighted so that the peak of the normal distribution is around level 20, not level 25. That means it will take more wins to level through 1-25 than it will 25-50. Which makes a bit of sense, if you don't want the highest levels too terribly crowded.
[b]The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.[/b]
Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up.
Trueskill ratings have no discernable correlation from hopper to hopper. When you play on a hopper you've never played on before, you are starting with a fresh Mu and a high Sigma.
Team Mu and Team Sigma are the summation of the Mu and Sigma values of all the players on the team. When calculating the skill of an opponent in a team game, the system uses the Team Mu and Team Sigma values in calculation wherever rational.
*Removed equations for space. They can be found in the link below.*
[url=http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx#How_to_Update_Skills]The rest of the equations and a less Halo 3 centric analysis of the Trueskill system can be found here.[/url]
_________________________________________________________
[b]Important additions, Appendices, and Member Questions Answered[/b]
_________________________________________________________
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14457003]In-depth response to a post LoveNub made later in this thread. Should clear things up for some.[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/createpost.aspx?postID=14504550]More data analyzed, and a request for help with research[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471689]Kudos to Jay120171 for finding the post detailing the Mixed Party Bug in matchmaking.[/url]
[quote][i][b]"Why do I win 10 games and not level up, then delevel when I lose 2? Help!"[/b][/i][/quote]
There are several possible explanations for this. The easiest one, and the one that fits the Trueskill system EXACTLY as explained by Microsoft, is that losing against a team that is X (I believe 6 or more, but experimentation is needed to determine the true value) skill points below you can cause you to lose as much as [b]5 times[/b] the Mu value that winning against even level teams gains you. Of course, winning against a team that has X [i]more[/i] skill levels than you can net you as much as 5 times the Mu gain. The reverse is true as well. Winning against a weak team can count as little as 1/5th of an even skill win.
Second, and this is enlightened conjecture, your Sigma value was low at the beginning of your streak, and since your win streak is raising it, the conservative ranking system (Remember, Rank = Mu MINUS (K times Sigma)) is kicking in to reduce your apparent skill level. Your real Mu is higher, but your higher Sigma is having a negative impact.
[quote][b]mo0vaf00 writes:[/b] (edited to clarify intent)
So is there some kind of value that requires you to be inconsistent to rank up? If I win 1 game going even and win the next going +10 do I have more of a chance of ranking up than just winning 2 games getting the same score?[/quote]
This conclusion is popping up fairly frequently. The answer is no. The system does not look at "In Match" statistics. At all. These stats are all included in a list above. The game only looks at your wins and your losses, and the strength of the opponents you play against.
Also, the system does not "reward" you for having a high Sigma value. There is ONE positive associated with high Sigma, and there are TWO negatives.
Positive: Your level can move up faster through winning.
Negative: Your level can move down faster through losing.
Negative: The conservative ranking system ranks you lower when your Sigma is higher.
Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving.
[Edited on 11.24.2007 11:54 PM PST]
-
This is a really cool thread. After reading this, it explains a lot. thx
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] evan6992 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] evan6992 I have a quick question... If i quit out of games in another play list will it effect my ranking up speed in a different one?[/quote] no[/quote] you sure?[/quote] yes
-
Nice dude..now stuff makes sence
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Silentone2 After searching these pages I have found no mention of it, so I would like to bring to your attention the possibility that time is factored into those equations. 3-4 months ago, I was leveling up like crazy. I was still having single-win skill progressions in the 45-47 area. Then, life called, and I got off for 3 months. When I came back, I got got back into my rythm in other playlists (which, according to the facts, should not affect my slayer rank), and even became better than before. By that I mean, I couldn't use the BR against other BR's 3-4 months ago, and since the playlist wasn't so BR laden back then, I could get away with it. Now after coming back, I'm more in the 3-4 win area to level up or down, with no change to the amount of wins or losses. Is it possible that prolonged inactivity can cause the system to forget your mu or sigma? Thus desiring you to reprove yourself before it takes you back to the same level? Thanks.[/quote]There is no indication anywhere that time is factored in to the equation. It is very difficult to make it in to 45+ range with a high sigma unless you won almost every game. Going up or down after ever 1 or 2 games is very unusual. The fact that you can still go up or down after 3 or 4 games is an indicator that your skill level is still pretty fluid and you have a relatively high sigma. I didn't look through much of your history but I did see you've played some games with teammates 20 levels below you. Keep in mind that those games are given less weight in skill updates so you get very little for the win. Also, going up after 3 or 4 wins at your level is good and about the best you'll get at this point. For some, by the time they get to 45+, they've played so many games and won and lost so many that it takes 10 wins to go up one level. Anyway, I do not believe time is factored in. You have the fact you played in a mixed skill party, you are winning and losing (not just winning every game to keep your sigma high) and as the population matures it becomes harder to get to the top.
-
start a new account and kill newbs. this is what the true skill system rewards .... ...no wait the newbs are second accounts nice ranking system for a video game though : D
-
Thank you for explaining this for all of us! You work is greatly appreciated.
-
After searching these pages I have found no mention of it, so I would like to bring to your attention the possibility that time is factored into those equations. 3-4 months ago, I was leveling up like crazy. I was still having single-win skill progressions in the 45-47 area. Then, life called, and I got off for 3 months. When I came back, I got got back into my rythm in other playlists (which, according to the facts, should not affect my slayer rank), and even became better than before. By that I mean, I couldn't use the BR against other BR's 3-4 months ago, and since the playlist wasn't so BR laden back then, I could get away with it. Now after coming back, I'm more in the 3-4 win area to level up or down, with no change to the amount of wins or losses. Is it possible that prolonged inactivity can cause the system to forget your mu or sigma? Thus desiring you to reprove yourself before it takes you back to the same level? Thanks.
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] evan6992 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] evan6992 I have a quick question... If i quit out of games in another play list will it effect my ranking up speed in a different one?[/quote] no[/quote] you sure?[/quote]Yes, he's sure
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] evan6992 I have a quick question... If i quit out of games in another play list will it effect my ranking up speed in a different one?[/quote] no[/quote] you sure?
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] evan6992 I have a quick question... If i quit out of games in another play list will it effect my ranking up speed in a different one?[/quote] no
-
I have a quick question... If i quit out of games in another play list will it effect my ranking up speed in a different one?
-
I win 4 matches and I dont go up, I lose 2 and I drop. Also in those 2 matches I get highest kill. Then I get paired up with people who cant even play the game and I go from a 25 to a 24. At the start of this, I was a 29. This is really unfair. I just did a match where I lost because of some guy with 4 kills while the rest of my team had a high amount of kills.
-
brain...frying... info overload info overload *head explodes* anyways nice post and very smart i was stuck at skill 43 in LW for AGES but now i am a brig grade 2 woo hoo =) [Edited on 05.06.2008 8:05 AM PDT]
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] eradication emu You know... I think the name of the system is ironic. It doesn't seem to take skill into the factor in the end.[/quote]The system is based on the premise that winning over equal or higher skilled opponents = skill. I believe most think that is an accurate way to determine skill. It's a little more complicated but basically you win and you gain skill, you lose and you lose skill.
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Astrodynamic Does Sigma lose its effectiveness in higher ranks?[/quote]My impression is that since you're a higher rank, you've likely become reasonably consistent, and therefore decreased your Sigma. This would stabilize your rank, which, in theory, will give you the best, most competitive games. And I must say that in my experience, that's been the case. My games recently have been very competitive, and even though I don't come out on top all the time, pretty thoroughly enjoyable.
-
You know... I think the name of the system is ironic. It doesn't seem to take skill into the factor in the end.
-
I think the truth to this post is very accurate. But I can't help but question one issue I have. That is, the issue of leveling up faster in new playlists. For instence, it could take a player 5 games to get from 46 lone wolves to 47 but when a brand new ranked playlist comes out they may go from level one to four in one game. How does this "Sigma" factor tie into this? Does Sigma lose its effectiveness in higher ranks?
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] avmf8 No one knows how the ranking system works not even the person who wrote this. It even says they do not work for MS or Bungie so how would anyone know 100% how it works? How are you supposed to completelly tell how something works when the people who made it do not say how it works. To be honest I think that the ranking system many occasions glitches out do to lag or other such things. But if what is said is true and it does not look at kill death ratio or MVP or medals or head shots or anything else then how is that really showing "True Skill" All of those things as far as I am concerned more show a players true skill. The ranking system seems to go on some stuff that the player has no control over. You may be good enough to beat level 50 players but if the game only gives you level 20 players to play against then that is not exactly you're fault.[/quote]The OP and many others who have participated in this thread used information from Microsoft and Bungie. Me and a few others who have stuck it out to answer questions have looked at 100's of players. You're correct, the OP and the rest of us don't work for Bungie but we have read how it works according to MS (the developers of TrueSkill) and Bungie. The OP linked info directly from MS on TrueSkill and other links to Bungie posts and info are sprinkled throughout this thread. Just because we don't have Gold text or the info has not been officially posted doesn't mean this info is wrong. As far as your other point, calculating skill levels based on individual performance. There have been a number of discussions on this subject in this thread and others. Yes, for TS it seems easy (although it really isn't) but other lists become much more difficult to judge what to base skill on. It also has some very damaging affects to gameplay and teamwork, as discussed in other threads. TrueSkill does not use individual stats as observed by me looking at 100's of players and according to the developers of TrueSkill, MS.
-
bst pst i red 2 dte
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XIX Goodeye XIX I think people need to take some time to read this. Many people complain about the ranking system, yet, those people do not even understand how the ranking system works. If they take the time to read this, then they would realize what they need to do to improve the skill. I, myself, have been angry with the ranking system before. The problem was that I did not know how it worked. Then, I learned about the ranking system, and I used that knowlege to improve.[/quote] No one knows how the ranking system works not even the person who wrote this. It even says they do not work for MS or Bungie so how would anyone know 100% how it works? How are you supposed to completelly tell how something works when the people who made it do not say how it works. To be honest I think that the ranking system many occasions glitches out do to lag or other such things. But if what is said is true and it does not look at kill death ratio or MVP or medals or head shots or anything else then how is that really showing "True Skill" All of those things as far as I am concerned more show a players true skill. The ranking system seems to go on some stuff that the player has no control over. You may be good enough to beat level 50 players but if the game only gives you level 20 players to play against then that is not exactly you're fault.
-
I will say this. That is pretty accurate. But you forget what the actual ranking structure is based on. It is based on a british military ranking structure (forgot which branch). I don't know about the symbols being accurate withe the rank but the names are dead on.
-
thanks for the info very helpful it cleared a lot of things up for me
-
I think people need to take some time to read this. Many people complain about the ranking system, yet, those people do not even understand how the ranking system works. If they take the time to read this, then they would realize what they need to do to improve the skill. I, myself, have been angry with the ranking system before. The problem was that I did not know how it worked. Then, I learned about the ranking system, and I used that knowlege to improve.
-
OMG NO algebra strikes again!!! (very nice post, very enlightening)
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hardfluke 2 Does this count for team doubles aswell? Because me and my friend won our first 31 games, and have only lost 8 of our 54 games so far, but are only level 15. How is this possible?[/quote] You need to switch up teammates. See previous pages for discussion. Playing with the same person will bug your visible rank.
-
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 That's the thing: I'm NOT losing 'enough' in Team SWAT. According to Microsoft's Research site about TrueSkill, the TrueSkill system needs anywhere from 46-140 games to identify your TrueSkill in a playlist that incorporates 2 teams with 4 players on each team. As of right now, my win/loss ratio in the playlist is 97%. Once I reach my 'TrueSkill' in Team SWAT (and assuming I keep the momentum that I have now in regards to win/losses), I should be leveling up much quicker in Team SWAT around the 40s to a 50 than I would in Team Slayer (which I've played ALOT in and have a much lower win/loss ratio percentage). As this point, it would take me 12-15 wins to go up one rank from a 45 in TS considering all the games I've played in it, and losing a lot of my first couple games, but winning a lot of my recent games NOW. EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that in Team Slayer, I started out very inconsistent. Winning some, losing some, etc.. for the first few games the TrueSkill needed to asses where I should be. However, in Team SWAT, I'm going in very consistenly, winning A LOT of games, losing only 3 so far. This should give the TrueSkill system a good look in terms of assessing my TrueSkill in Team SWAT, thus allowing me to not go through 15 consecutive wins to go up one rank around the 40s, compared to Team Slayer. See what I mean? It's like leaving a very good first impression when you first meet a woman, so she ends up thinking very highly of you from the get go compared to leaving an okay to bad first impression, but recently beginning to make her like you as everyday goes by, thus making her uncomfortable in whether or not to continue trusting you, wanting to be with you, etc.[/quote] Well you'ver pretty much answered your own question I think. Ranking will be easier in SWAT because you have high sigma...assuming you don't make the mistakes we have highlighted within this large thread: 1) Playing with the same people all the time 2) Never losing Ranking from 40-50 may be easier in theory, but in reality it won't be because your matchmaking quality will deteriorate heavily (due to less people).