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#Halo3

11/12/2007 9:22:18 PM
2607

In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

[b]I am NOT an employee of Bungie nor one of Microsoft, and my views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of either of the aforementioned entities. Also, thanks for sticking this Bungie, I hope it is useful.[/b] There is one caveat to consider before we get under weigh. Bungie is not likely, nor or ever, to release the true inner workings of the Halo 3 ranking system, but as it is based somewhat on the Microsoft Trueskill system, this is a fair approximation of the way skill ranking works in Halo 3. [quote][i][b]What is the Trueskill system?[/b][/i][/quote] The Trueskill system is a player skill rating system for Xbox Live. Halo 3 uses a version of the Trueskill system in order to make the matches fairly even. [quote][i][b]How Does Trueskill Work?[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill assigns skills on a normal distribution (bell curve, Gaussian). The Trueskill system has two main variables to consider. They are your player skill level ([b]Mu[/b]) and your uncertainty factor ([b]Sigma[/b]). [b]Mu[/b] is an approximation of your skill level based upon past performance. Win games to raise Mu, and lose games to lower Mu. [b]Sigma[/b] is the numerical representation of the range in which your [i]true[/i] skill could lie. Play really consistently, and you have a low Sigma. Play streakily, and you have a higher Sigma. After a win, the Trueskill system adjusts your skill ranking based upon the Mu and Sigma of all the players in the game. We'll go deeper into [i]how much[/i] it is adjusted later. Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game. [quote][i][b]Why don't I level up after winning X games in a row? / Why does my friend go up three levels a game and I don't?[/b][/i][/quote] Mu increases after a win. Always. [b]The increase is proportional to the winner's Sigma and the Mu difference between the winner and the loser.[/b] So, if your Sigma is high, you will proceed faster through the ranking system (in BOTH directions). If your Sigma is low, you will both gain and lose rank more slowly. [quote][i][b]So, I want a high Sigma value?[/b][/i][/quote] While it sounds as though a high Sigma value is desirable, it CAN be a double edged sword. A high Sigma can mean you increase by one level for every win. It also means you decrease by one level for every loss. In addition, a high Sigma means that your skill ranking will be significantly lower than your actual skill owing to the conservative nature of the [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] ranking equation. Also, Sigma value starts out VERY high. So, if this is your friend's first time in a particular ranked hopper, and he wins consistently, his rank will rise meteorically due to his high Sigma. [quote][i][b]Myth Busting[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill DOES NOT take into evaluation performances inside the game. The ONLY statistics that Trueskill takes from a game are the Mu and Sigma values of all the players, and how you placed. This means that out of all of these statistics: Getting the MVP Having a High K/D ratio Getting the most medals Skill levels of those you killed / killed you Weapons you used Headshots Captures, detonations, stops, ousts, etc. NONE of them matter when calculating the Mu increase/decrease. Any link between any of these and the skill ratings are purely correlative and not causative. For example. When I play Team Slayer with my buddies on my alternate gamertag, much of the time I end up carrying the team. I created this tag to play with my buddies, and as such, have only ever played on that party with that tag. I ranked up to the level of my friends within 20 or so games, while it had taken them 50 to 100 games to reach their level. My friends thought that it was because of my frequent MVP status and my high K/D ratio that I leveled up so fast. Wrong. I leveled up fast because [b]A)[/b] I initially had a very high Sigma, making my Mu more variable after each win, [b]B)[/b] Starting out at a 1 and playing people in the mid teens gave me a considerable boost every time I won, and [b]C)[/b] We won more frequently than they had in the past. [quote][i][b]Summation[/b][/i][/quote] If you're worried that you're not getting your fair shake in the ranking system, look at the last 50 games that you've played in that hopper. (If you haven't played 50 games, play more. The system needs more data.) Take your win/loss average. If it's 65% or above, and you've been in that playlist for a while, you've probably increased in level 2 or more times over the last 50 games (or you will in the next 20 or so). Otherwise you are going to be hovering around the same level or dropping in rank. [quote][i][b]Addendum, Opinion, and Technical Notes[/b][/i][/quote] In strict Trueskill systems, Sigma only decreases. I believe the "momentum" system in Halo 3 means that Sigma can be increased through consistent winning or losing. This is total conjecture, but I think that Sigma in Halo 3 matchmaking hoppers is proportional to the absolute value of the win/loss ratio of your last X number of games. The formula probably looks a little like: [b]Sigma = C ( | wins - losses | )[/b] where C is an arbitrary constant. This would explain why when some people go on a win streak with two or more different parties, their skill goes up faster than their teammates' skill. I also believe that the system is weighted so that the peak of the normal distribution is around level 20, not level 25. That means it will take more wins to level through 1-25 than it will 25-50. Which makes a bit of sense, if you don't want the highest levels too terribly crowded. [b]The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.[/b] Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up. Trueskill ratings have no discernable correlation from hopper to hopper. When you play on a hopper you've never played on before, you are starting with a fresh Mu and a high Sigma. Team Mu and Team Sigma are the summation of the Mu and Sigma values of all the players on the team. When calculating the skill of an opponent in a team game, the system uses the Team Mu and Team Sigma values in calculation wherever rational. *Removed equations for space. They can be found in the link below.* [url=http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx#How_to_Update_Skills]The rest of the equations and a less Halo 3 centric analysis of the Trueskill system can be found here.[/url] _________________________________________________________ [b]Important additions, Appendices, and Member Questions Answered[/b] _________________________________________________________ [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14457003]In-depth response to a post LoveNub made later in this thread. Should clear things up for some.[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/createpost.aspx?postID=14504550]More data analyzed, and a request for help with research[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471689]Kudos to Jay120171 for finding the post detailing the Mixed Party Bug in matchmaking.[/url] [quote][i][b]"Why do I win 10 games and not level up, then delevel when I lose 2? Help!"[/b][/i][/quote] There are several possible explanations for this. The easiest one, and the one that fits the Trueskill system EXACTLY as explained by Microsoft, is that losing against a team that is X (I believe 6 or more, but experimentation is needed to determine the true value) skill points below you can cause you to lose as much as [b]5 times[/b] the Mu value that winning against even level teams gains you. Of course, winning against a team that has X [i]more[/i] skill levels than you can net you as much as 5 times the Mu gain. The reverse is true as well. Winning against a weak team can count as little as 1/5th of an even skill win. Second, and this is enlightened conjecture, your Sigma value was low at the beginning of your streak, and since your win streak is raising it, the conservative ranking system (Remember, Rank = Mu MINUS (K times Sigma)) is kicking in to reduce your apparent skill level. Your real Mu is higher, but your higher Sigma is having a negative impact. [quote][b]mo0vaf00 writes:[/b] (edited to clarify intent) So is there some kind of value that requires you to be inconsistent to rank up? If I win 1 game going even and win the next going +10 do I have more of a chance of ranking up than just winning 2 games getting the same score?[/quote] This conclusion is popping up fairly frequently. The answer is no. The system does not look at "In Match" statistics. At all. These stats are all included in a list above. The game only looks at your wins and your losses, and the strength of the opponents you play against. Also, the system does not "reward" you for having a high Sigma value. There is ONE positive associated with high Sigma, and there are TWO negatives. Positive: Your level can move up faster through winning. Negative: Your level can move down faster through losing. Negative: The conservative ranking system ranks you lower when your Sigma is higher. Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving. [Edited on 11.24.2007 11:54 PM PST]
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  • i am a major grade 2 on my other account i have a 31 in lone wolves but a 10 in team slayer i must have won at least 10 games and got mvp in 3 of them but i still did not rank up. Why is this happening? my current gt is Shawnz39

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jay120171 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 Wouldn't giving a heavier weighting on streaks make it worse? You can't expect everyone to get 50+ wins in a row once they hit a certain rank. TrueSkill simply needs to recognize a change in player skill within a handful of games, not 150+ games.[/quote]Currently it takes about 10 wins to go up one level on average for a player who has matured his account (low sigma). The only way for the system to currently detect a skill change is by the players sigma going up (after a large amount of unpredictable outcomes coupled with the small amount of sigma the system already adds back in prior to each of your games). I believe, because of info posted on the MS website and viewing players stats, it takes between 50-100 games for the system to detect a significant skill change. It is my theory that having the system use another variable to adjust sigma up at a quicker rate then it currently happens would allow it to detect skill changes quicker and give it more resolution (not take as many games) than it currently has. What that variable should be is THE point of contention. I believe streaks could be used but others have pointed out that streaks can have no significant relevance in statistics. I still believe they can be relevant given the fact the skill system is "trying" to prevent you from winning by matching you up against players of increasing skill as you win. [/quote] Hmm, with my experience leveling up in Team Slayer, that is certainly not the case. I've won 5x that amount of 10 wins you speak of, and I just barely ranked up to a 47 from 46. Although the 10 wins average seems to be the case for my Team SWAT rank, but not my Team Slayer rank.[/quote] He means 10 games for the average rank. At the highest ranks (45+), matchmaking quality deteriorates due to less population, hence why it is likely to take longer. Basically means have your wins will be useless because the system doesn't give you a high enough quality opponant to gain MU off of.

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  • Thank you for explaining this. Now i understand why people get second accounts. Nice work.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jay120171 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 Wouldn't giving a heavier weighting on streaks make it worse? You can't expect everyone to get 50+ wins in a row once they hit a certain rank. TrueSkill simply needs to recognize a change in player skill within a handful of games, not 150+ games.[/quote]Currently it takes about 10 wins to go up one level on average for a player who has matured his account (low sigma). The only way for the system to currently detect a skill change is by the players sigma going up (after a large amount of unpredictable outcomes coupled with the small amount of sigma the system already adds back in prior to each of your games). I believe, because of info posted on the MS website and viewing players stats, it takes between 50-100 games for the system to detect a significant skill change. It is my theory that having the system use another variable to adjust sigma up at a quicker rate then it currently happens would allow it to detect skill changes quicker and give it more resolution (not take as many games) than it currently has. What that variable should be is THE point of contention. I believe streaks could be used but others have pointed out that streaks can have no significant relevance in statistics. I still believe they can be relevant given the fact the skill system is "trying" to prevent you from winning by matching you up against players of increasing skill as you win. [/quote] Hmm, with my experience leveling up in Team Slayer, that is certainly not the case. I've won 5x that amount of 10 wins you speak of, and I just barely ranked up to a 47 from 46. Although the 10 wins average seems to be the case for my Team SWAT rank, but not my Team Slayer rank.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] frontlinefighter If you are reading this follow these directions: 1.Find a bl1ndd k1dd's file share 2.Look at his videos for sticky grenade montages or just crazy montages 3.find our forum in halo 3 forums 4.Take the vote on what you think these videos are like 5.Admire these pics from your Hearts desire . From, ThreebaII1313,a bl1ndd k1dd,and Seans Mom69[/quote]I vote you're a dumbass for posting this here. If and when you do find a place to properly post it, take the 3 minutes it would normally take, and link the items in the file share and link to your post in the H3 forum - it's not hard.

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  • If you are reading this follow these directions: 1.Find a bl1ndd k1dd's file share 2.Look at his videos for sticky grenade montages or just crazy montages 3.find our forum in halo 3 forums 4.Take the vote on what you think these videos are like 5.Admire these pics from your Hearts desire . From, ThreebaII1313,a bl1ndd k1dd,and Seans Mom69

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  • explaines alot

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  • luv it

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SeriousMouse Heres a ONE word sum up on the ranking system, random.[/quote]It can seem to be but in reality it is not when you know everything that is happening to give you a little number next to your name. Although, I don't agree or like all aspects of the skill system it is anything but random. I think a better word to describe it would be complicated.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 Wouldn't giving a heavier weighting on streaks make it worse? You can't expect everyone to get 50+ wins in a row once they hit a certain rank. TrueSkill simply needs to recognize a change in player skill within a handful of games, not 150+ games.[/quote]Currently it takes about 10 wins to go up one level on average for a player who has matured his account (low sigma). The only way for the system to currently detect a skill change is by the players sigma going up (after a large amount of unpredictable outcomes coupled with the small amount of sigma the system already adds back in prior to each of your games). I believe, because of info posted on the MS website and viewing players stats, it takes between 50-100 games for the system to detect a significant skill change. It is my theory that having the system use another variable to adjust sigma up at a quicker rate then it currently happens would allow it to detect skill changes quicker and give it more resolution (not take as many games) than it currently has. What that variable should be is THE point of contention. I believe streaks could be used but others have pointed out that streaks can have no significant relevance in statistics. I still believe they can be relevant given the fact the skill system is "trying" to prevent you from winning by matching you up against players of increasing skill as you win.

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  • Heres a ONE word sum up on the ranking system, random.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah Microsoft is looking into a more variable sigma.[/quote] They are?[/quote] My understanding from a few discussions Jay has had with people that they are looking into weighing streaks into the calculation. The only thing streaks could affect would be sigma.[/quote] Wouldn't giving a heavier weighting on streaks make it worse? You can't expect everyone to get 50+ wins in a row once they hit a certain rank. TrueSkill simply needs to recognize a change in player skill within a handful of games, not 150+ games.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Domino Theory 2 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah Microsoft is looking into a more variable sigma.[/quote] They are?[/quote] My understanding from a few discussions Jay has had with people that they are looking into weighing streaks into the calculation. The only thing streaks could affect would be sigma.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Baaaaaaaaaaaaah Microsoft is looking into a more variable sigma.[/quote] They are?

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  • I think this is going to help me very much because I've been having a hard time ranking up, but now that i have a scientific angle of how I need to play I think I should do well. Also, is this saying that if you do good, then bad, then good, then bad etc. that you will be able to get your rank (not EXP) up faster? but I may be wrong

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ProXiMityAl3rt TrueRank or whatever this is called is actually quite a horrible idea the way it is currently set up. Think about this. On your main account you played X amount of games lets say 5000 and you are a level 43. You start a new account now that you have played so many games and your skill has increased so that in 150 games are level 50. Whats my true skill? 43 or 50? Also TrueRank doesn't take into account the variable of a players changing skill. If I'm playing like a 35 and I've been a 35 forever, then I go play with my friends in tons of customs that are 50's and now I'm playing like a 50... then I go back to my 35 and play on it, I still take hundreds of games to level up even to 40, all while making the game not as fun for the 35's who are getting destroyed. Now we have uneven skill distribution at different ranks. TrueSkill also seems to ignore individual effort and focus on win/loss ratio only. If I'm playing like a level 30, and I go in with a partner who is the best halo player in the world, I'm still going to be a 50, and it has nothing to do with my 'trueskill'. I also don't feel there is enough levels (only 50) to create a fair distribution of skill given the variable of luck in matchmaking. Let's say player A gets matched up against two players mentioned earlier that are level 30 but were carried by their partner to a much higher level. They continue to beat these players and level up quickly. Then player B gets constantly matched up against two of the players who skill is much higher and carried their partner to a much higher level. WIth the amount of variable skill crammed into each level and individual effort ignored your level can too easily be inflated or deflated depending on your luck in matchmaking. How about this situation: Two players on the same team in doubles continue to get matched up. In each game player A is +12 kills, and player B is -13 kills. In this situation win/loss ratio would be identical, and given the current ranking system, player A skill = player B skill... but does it? Some of these issues would be resolved if the variable kills/deaths were added to the equation rather than just wins and losses. That way a player being carried and having a negative kill/death could still lose a level even though their team wins (eliminate boosting) and a player that lost but had a positive kill/death skill level could still increase or remain the same and their level wouldn't be reduced by their team mates lower skill level. This would likely only be required for games with teams that the outcome is decided by kill points. Another issue could be addressed if the factor that determines the rate in which one would level up or down would periodically reset (lets say every 150 games). That way the system could account for the variable of a players changing skill (the level 35 and 43 mentioned earlier now levels up faster if they are playing like a higher skill level, removing them from the uneven skill distribution they would be at if the system ignores change in skill. If skill doesn't change then the reset would not likely do more then a change in a few levels up and down before coming back to rest at origional skill level. (For anyone who is confused, I don't mean reset the ranks, only the factor that determines rate of change. Just my thoughts -Physics Major at Private University in Oregon [/quote] You bring up the known flaw of True Skill (or at least perceived)...that being recognition of a skill change for players that have played a lot. I became interested in the system for the same reasons as you...I was a 30-40 guy, but then started playing boatloads of customs with 50's, and I got a hell of a lot better. My ranks were pretty stagnant though, and I proved that through starting some alternative accounts. No real solution at the moment. Microsoft is looking into a more variable sigma, and Jay and others are having some heavy discussions in other sections of the forums to address the perceived problem.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NinjaKiwi621 so basically if u play another playlist for a long time and then go bak to team slayer, u will go up faster in slayer?[/quote] No, your sigma and MU are remembered by the system in each playlist, no matter how long you have avoided them

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  • good stuff man, well thought out there but...why? im sorry. look. in halo 2 it worked some thing like this - you win, your getting better, you rank up you loose - not so good, you go down. theres veriables obviously like if you beat a team of lv 30-35s and your team was lv 30's then yeh, you did good so you can have more...XP ( i mean that bar thing they had for levels ) yeh? thats how it should work. then you get rewarded for being better. not now its not. in halo 3, you loose games and you level up...not based on MVP, just randomly. i used to play slayer with 3 of my mates and only us 4 usualy as we play well together right, well now one of us is a 45, one is 32, another 34 and one 35. though we were always a team in that game type. we were all very confuzled. differt thoughts of how it works " it goes off personal performance thats why im a 45 and better than you all n00bz0rz!" but hah, no, it doesnt. whats MVP? eh? most valued player ok. tell me how that works? well i know that, the player with most kills! nothing else taken into account. at all. just if you get more kills than anyone else your the MVP, dispite all your 30 deaths and fluke beat downs etc and while your team mates were taking out warthogs that were heading straight towards you and taking out the other teams rockets or laser etc nope. doesnt count. most kills. is the best. stupid. thats nonsence. and well, whats the point anyway? if it doesnt count towards your rank why have it? in post game people can clearly see who got the most kills so why do they need to see a picture of you telling them you got the most? they dont...its silly. i dont know what they thought they were doing with it but its ballsed up royaly now. still really enjoyable and a lurv it but now i really dont pay attention to ranks, they just mean nothing anymore. J x

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  • so basically if u play another playlist for a long time and then go bak to team slayer, u will go up faster in slayer?

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  • TrueRank or whatever this is called is actually quite a horrible idea the way it is currently set up. Think about this. On your main account you played X amount of games lets say 5000 and you are a level 43. You start a new account now that you have played so many games and your skill has increased so that in 150 games are level 50. Whats my true skill? 43 or 50? Also TrueRank doesn't take into account the variable of a players changing skill. If I'm playing like a 35 and I've been a 35 forever, then I go play with my friends in tons of customs that are 50's and now I'm playing like a 50... then I go back to my 35 and play on it, I still take hundreds of games to level up even to 40, all while making the game not as fun for the 35's who are getting destroyed. Now we have uneven skill distribution at different ranks. TrueSkill also seems to ignore individual effort and focus on win/loss ratio only. If I'm playing like a level 30, and I go in with a partner who is the best halo player in the world, I'm still going to be a 50, and it has nothing to do with my 'trueskill'. I also don't feel there is enough levels (only 50) to create a fair distribution of skill given the variable of luck in matchmaking. Let's say player A gets matched up against two players mentioned earlier that are level 30 but were carried by their partner to a much higher level. They continue to beat these players and level up quickly. Then player B gets constantly matched up against two of the players who skill is much higher and carried their partner to a much higher level. WIth the amount of variable skill crammed into each level and individual effort ignored your level can too easily be inflated or deflated depending on your luck in matchmaking. How about this situation: Two players on the same team in doubles continue to get matched up. In each game player A is +12 kills, and player B is -13 kills. In this situation win/loss ratio would be identical, and given the current ranking system, player A skill = player B skill... but does it? Some of these issues would be resolved if the variable kills/deaths were added to the equation rather than just wins and losses. That way a player being carried and having a negative kill/death could still lose a level even though their team wins (eliminate boosting) and a player that lost but had a positive kill/death skill level could still increase or remain the same and their level wouldn't be reduced by their team mates lower skill level. This would likely only be required for games with teams that the outcome is decided by kill points. Another issue could be addressed if the factor that determines the rate in which one would level up or down would periodically reset (lets say every 150 games). That way the system could account for the variable of a players changing skill (the level 35 and 43 mentioned earlier now levels up faster if they are playing like a higher skill level, removing them from the uneven skill distribution they would be at if the system ignores change in skill. If skill doesn't change then the reset would not likely do more then a change in a few levels up and down before coming back to rest at origional skill level. (For anyone who is confused, I don't mean reset the ranks, only the factor that determines rate of change. Just my thoughts -Physics Major at Private University in Oregon

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ZeeAk So, if I'm ranking up for evry win, and ranking down for every loss, what does that mean?[/quote] Means you still have high sigma and the system is unsure of your rank right now.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Turntable Junky Cheers for the write up. Tis a shame this thread will probably die as the majority of users on this site won't understand it. But cheers anyway.[/quote] lol yeah probably will die it's only got 64 pages of reply's. great post i see why my cousin thinks he knows exactly how the ranking system works now ;)

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  • So, if I'm ranking up for evry win, and ranking down for every loss, what does that mean?

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  • thank you for the info its nice to know this type of stuff.

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  • great

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Argus eyed [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxdeadlockedxX [i]Does wearing the katana effect the exp you receive per game?[/i][/quote] No.[/quote] I LOL'd for real...I think he was joking though.

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