I was just playing Halo 1 the other day, playing CTF on blood gulch against my 9 year old sister ( she likes to play) We had never played Halo 1 against each other ( my xbox 360 never worked with multiplayer on it) anyways, my nine year old sister killed me with a pistol from halfway across the map. She IS talented, but I think the Pistol was a little stronger than it should have been. I liked the scope though, it made for easy surveying of the field. I say keep the digital scope, ( MC can alaready zoom in Halo 2, why not just let him shoot the pistol at the same time?) keep the range too, maybe lessen it slightly but make the pistol a little less powerful, I liked the pistol being strong, but not THAT strong. the battle rifle took longer to kill that that did

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achilles1108 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa Achilles, everything you just listed has t odo with realism. Not balance. i.e. "You should not drop an assault rifle for a pistol" - How does that have anything to do with balance?[/quote] My bad. I guess running around with a powered up hand cannon [i]is[/i] balanced because that is all people would be using.[/quote]That is not true unless you change the default spawn weapon to the pistol. The same can be said about the Battle Rifle in Halo 2, which is even easier to use in multiple situations than the Pistol was. [quote]Realism helps create the balance. I believe that is point that some of the other people in this thread are trying to get across.[/quote]Well I haven't seen anyone saying that realism will create balance...maybe balance can create realism at points, though. Because that is what Halo is based around. Not realism. [Edited on 03.23.2007 9:49 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa Achilles, everything you just listed has t odo with realism. Not balance. i.e. "You should not drop an assault rifle for a pistol" - How does that have anything to do with balance?[/quote] My bad. I guess running around with a powered up hand cannon [i]is[/i] balanced because that is all people would be using. Realism helps create the balance. I believe that is point that some of the other people in this thread are trying to get across.

Achilles, everything you just listed has t odo with realism. Not balance. i.e. "You should not drop an assault rifle for a pistol" - How does that have anything to do with balance? [Edited on 03.23.2007 9:34 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa Also, please try to explain why the pistol in Halo was unbalanced, then logically try to say why it will be unbalanced when it returns to Halo 3, with 8 rounds per magazine.[/quote] I would like to see the Magnum return from Halo 2. The Halo pistol was so unbalanced that it was insane. When people would would drop an assault rifle to use a pistol something is very wrong. A pistol should not be able to kill in three shots from halfway across a huge map. For those of you who say that it is because it is in the future I have a little suggestion for you. Why would they make a pistol that can do that but not actually upgrade the rest of the weapons with the same technology? If they did that I would have a sniper rifle that I could fire on Coag and hit a target on Containment. A pistol is meant to be a sidearm. Not to be a mini sniper rifle. That my friends is unbalanced. If it returns to Halo 3 even with and 8 round mag it will still be more powerful than what it should be. Especially if it still takes 3 shots to kill someone. All people would do is run around with pistols again and the game itself will suffer because of it. If they make the pistol that way then they will need to increase the other weapons just as much to make it how a pistol should be. A last resort weapon. Not an all purpose one handed death machine. Also if the name calling does not stop I will make it stop.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage I've said that from the very beginning that the HaloCE pistol violated both realism and balance. That's not just my opinion, but also the opinion of many Bungie employees, along with countless others. I've never said that the HaloCE pistol shouldn't return based solely upon realism. Rather it is more of a balance issue that is what is completely wrong with the HaloCE pistol. When the weapon balance is so messed up it starts to degrade the "suspension of disbelief" and that makes it less realistic to me. I fixate on weapons because I deal with them on almost a daily basis. [/quote]The SMG also fills the role of not being balanced according to bungie, and not being realistic (recoil?). Also, please try to explain why the pistol in Halo was unbalanced, then logically try to say why it will be unbalanced when it returns to Halo 3, with 8 rounds per magazine. [quote]Oh and MLG Chewhatever, I no longer respond to you, it's a waste of my time. [/quote]Yes, its a waste of your time because you know you will not get anywhere, as Rhythm said, you cannot get out of the shallow grave you dug yourself.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RhythmKiller You must have missed the part it where became clear you couldn’t wriggle out of it. You have embraced one unrealistic aspect, but rejected another. This shows you have no consistency, and therefore no point. You like one, but don’t like the other. That’s all there is to it. Don’t try and make it look objective, because it isn’t. You are right I have offered no argument, because none is required. You don’t even know what [i]my[/i] actual opinion is on the matter yet (I can tell you it’s not the same as yours, and it’s not the same as the O.P.s... I would call it a moderate one), any perception you have of what I think is assumption. All I have done is tell you how ridiculous your realism-based complaints are, and how you really ought to just fess up and admit that all you base your complaint on is your personal taste. You respond by calling me a prick and getting angry. Keep it coming why don’t you - it just shows how childish and stupid you are being. [b]Typical fanboy.[/b] Your concept of realism does not apply to this video game. I’ll stop saying it when you start listening. I don’t care what you think about real-world modern day firearms, because it is utterly irrelevant. Game design > Realism, as the tank-flipping vs SMG recoil inconsistency shows conclusively... though of course there are a boatload of other ones. Everywhere you look in the game, the laws of physics and common sense are completely torn apart. Feel free to grow up and admit the subjectivity of your viewpoint at any time. [/quote] Wow, you really just like to see what you want to see, and less with what is actually there. I can "wiggle" out of it because you were the idiot that misunderstood what I said, and then tried to use it against me. You might try to stay away from the fallacies before you start making accusations. It's not impossible for me to like one aspect of a game and not a different one, I have that ability, so does everyone else. Video games try to instill in people the "suspension of disbelief", much like movies and theater attempt to do the same. I've said that from the very beginning that the HaloCE pistol violated both realism and balance. That's not just my opinion, but also the opinion of many Bungie employees, along with countless others. I've never said that the HaloCE pistol shouldn't return based solely upon realism. Rather it is more of a balance issue that is what is completely wrong with the HaloCE pistol. When the weapon balance is so messed up it starts to degrade the "suspension of disbelief" and that makes it less realistic to me. I fixate on weapons because I deal with them on almost a daily basis. Everyone's opinion on this matter is subjective, so what is your damn point? I said in a previous post that you cannot speak on this as an authority because it is Science Fiction. I at least attempt to give reasons why I have my opinions and that is based upon realism and balance. You called me a fanboi??!?! That is so funny I can't help but giggle. Who exactly am I a fanboi for? Who exactly am I a fanboi against? Please, try to think before resorting to name calling. Oh and MLG Chewhatever, I no longer respond to you, it's a waste of my time. ~B.B.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coniel Your a big one ton machine of death and your weapon of choice is a tiny pistol. ; ) Why not just give it a laser sight?[/quote] Halo is an unrealistic game. As long as its fun, it doesnt really need to make sence. [/quote] Here's an idea for you, if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me. See how that works. ~B.B.[/quote]Wait a second... So, you're telling me you enjoy the game with... Aliens Genocide Floating Space Rings Faster than Light Travel Time Dilation Cyborg Super Soldiers AI that are smarter than Scientists Orbital MAC Guns Space Elevators Handheld Plasma weaponry Handheld Laser weaponry A rail gun on the back of a buggy Strength-amplifying augmentations etc. etc. etc. You know...why the hell can the Chief flip a tank with one hand, but he cannot hold a puny SMG down with two hands, with the stock extended? You know...why the hell can the Chief have some sort of "aim adjustment" (mass aim assist) that magnetically moves his bullets and plasma towards enemies? You know...why the hell can't the Chief throw grenades farther than I could in Halo 2? He's a "super human" right? You know...how the Hell does the Arbiter speak english without a tounge or chin? All he has is a..throat hole, yet Johnson understands him. You know...how the hell are the humans traveling back and forth between Star systems within a few months? But a pistol that is a mere hybrid of a DEagle and a Tournament shooter...somehow pushes it over the threshold? [Edited on 03.23.2007 8:47 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tech Sgt Chen2 1) the pistol in the first halo was fun[/quote]Yes. [quote]but also way too powerful for a ranked match game in halo 3[/quote]Uh? If it is, then so is the BR, Sniper, Beam Rifle, Rocket, Sword and Spartan Laser. Needler if its made a power weapon, and Shotty if it regains its power weapon status. [quote]2) they should have a moddified pistol w/o or with a scope just make it less powerful. [/quote]It does not need to be less powerful if the magazine size isj ust reduced to 8 rounds, so it is already less of a power house. The pistol had a more realistic (to real-life guns) reload, thus will be even less better off than the BR, another midrange gun in Halo 3. You should not try to tak away the 3SK, or the weapon will be underused. Underused weapons (i.e. Needler, Magnum and Brute PR in Halo 2) do not belong. Make the pistol belong.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] yourpimp What's the point of using any other gun if the pistol is an extremely strong short, mid, and long-range weapon? The scope on the pistal was good enough to replace picking up the sniper rifle. And in short ranges it was good enough to skip the assault rifle. So why have any other gun in the game then?[/quote] Your argument is moot. The battle rifle has a 2x scope, just like the pistol. And it excelled at all ranges of use. Close range? Well, if you don't have a shotgun or sword, you can always BxR them, thus rendering those power weapons obsolete in a sense. So if we were to follow your logic, then why are there other weapons in H2 when the br does everything fairly descent? As for the pistol, I would really love to see a weapon that doesn't have the heavy aim assist like the br does. I can't count the number of times that I've been plinking some guy in the gourd, when his amigo runs infront of him and drags the reticule off the player I was working on. On a different note, I'd like to say that the grenade throwing arm from Halo 1 needs to return, no more of this lame sauce sidearm crap that the chief does now.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 For those of you who have not seen the leaked footage, a modified version of the original pistol is being brought back to the series. In the footage, a scope for the pistol was not shown. I understand that nothing has been finialized or announced to be official, which is why I think its a great time for a "scope on the pistol debate". In my opinoin, there were 4 major factors that made the orignal pistol so great: 1. Range 2. Accuracy 3. Damage 4. The Scope As you can see, not including the scope on the Halo 3 pistol would only result in 75% of the greatness the orignal brought to players. Also, the scope gave you a better chance of hitting your target, espically on the larger maps like Blood Gultch, and Sidewinder. In a way, the scope made the pistol a more effective weapon. This made the game more balanced. Furthermore, the scope made the game more fun. The second greatest feeling in the game was when you killed an enemy from across the map with the pistol. I really dont see a reason why the pistol should not be included. Keep in mind hitboxes and auto-aim are being reduced to the Halo 1 level once again. So getting a kill all by headshots wont be very easy. Putting a scope on the pistol again wont tamper with its balancement. Please post your thoughts.[/quote] 1) the pistol in the first halo was fun but also way too powerful for a ranked match game in halo 3 2) they should have a moddified pistol w/o or with a scope just make it less powerful.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xWoRD OF MoUFx if they bring back the 3 shot death across the world death. ill kill myself[/quote] I'm sure we'll be devestated by the loss....

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RhythmKiller [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RhythmKiller [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage Here's an idea for you, if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me. See how that works. [/quote] I see how that works. I guess a game where a guy can flip a huge tank but can't a hold a tiny automatic weapon straight wouldn't be your idea of a good time then.[/quote] Did I say anything about the recoil of the weapon? No...don't think I did. Did I say anything about the accuracy of the weapon? No...I don't think I did. [/quote] No. You said "if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me." What I just pointed out to you makes no sense. Yet it's in halo 2. So stop trying to be a smartarse, because you can't wriggle out of the hole you just dug yourself into. Now do as you're told, and admit that this is all just because you personally don't like it, because all of your arguments are rubbish.[/quote] I said, "if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me" correct?? Well if everything in a game makes no sense to me, then it's not very fun. The more things that make sense to me, or at least somewhat makes sense, makes the game more fun IMO. I said that if an entire game made no sense then it is not very fun for me, so kindly stop misinterpreting what I'm saying, and trying to use it against me. That's sadly the worst kind of fallacy, and you just stooped to it. [/quote] You must have missed the part it where became clear you couldn’t wriggle out of it. You have embraced one unrealistic aspect, but rejected another. This shows you have no consistency, and therefore no point. You like one, but don’t like the other. That’s all there is to it. Don’t try and make it look objective, because it isn’t. [quote]How about you do as you're told and stop being a prick yourself. My arguments are far more persuasive than yours, if you can even call what you did an argument. It is feasible that a person who is encased 2 ton armor would be able to flip a tank. Look in the books, it goes into great detail how the MC does some of the super-human strength things he does. [/quote] Does it go into great detail about how this super-human strength cannot hold a tiny automatic weapon straight? Well? You are right I have offered no argument, because none is required. You don’t even know what [i]my[/i] actual opinion is on the matter yet (I can tell you it’s not the same as yours, and it’s not the same as the O.P.s... I would call it a moderate one), any perception you have of what I think is assumption. All I have done is tell you how ridiculous your realism-based complaints are, and how you really ought to just fess up and admit that all you base your complaint on is your personal taste. You respond by calling me a prick and getting angry. Keep it coming why don’t you - it just shows how childish and stupid you are being. [b]Typical fanboy.[/b] [quote]I do not however see any explaination about how a pistol should have greater power, range, and accuracy than a rifle counter-part. Rifles have been superior to handguns for centuries, and it does not make any sense that they would change in the future. [/quote] Your concept of realism does not apply to this video game. I’ll stop saying it when you start listening. I don’t care what you think about real-world modern day firearms, because it is utterly irrelevant. Game design > Realism, as the tank-flipping vs SMG recoil inconsistency shows conclusively... though of course there are a boatload of other ones. Everywhere you look in the game, the laws of physics and common sense are completely torn apart. Feel free to grow up and admit the subjectivity of your viewpoint at any time.

its definitly gonna have a scope, i think its gonna be like 2x magnificaiton, 8 shots a clip, somethin like that, lets just say its gonna take some fancy shootin to kill that guy lightin you up with his assault rifle

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alexander IVX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 Not yet, I dont see how the range will increase due to a scope. [/quote]Tell me, young one. What is the purpose of a scope device?[/quote] WTF! Who do you think you are? Ghandi?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RatMan91 Actually, it depended on the map you were playing as to whether or not you spawned with the pistol. And you spawned with the pistol on most of the maps.[/quote] Im curious to know where you stand as far as bringing back the scope[/quote] No.

I loved the scope, it doesn't make sense on the SMG or AR because with that rate of fire it would be useless after the first round was fired because of vibration. There are two types of pistols in most games, the magnum one and the sidearm one, it was like that in Golden Eye, Half-Life, Half-life 2... The magnum from Half-life 2 was incredibly accurate but had no scope and only 6 rounds and a slow reload. The sidearm pistol sucked compared to it but you could spray and never worry about running out of ammo cause it was always around. I think we will have 2 pistols in Halo 3.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RhythmKiller [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RhythmKiller [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BerserkerBarage Here's an idea for you, if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me. See how that works. [/quote] I see how that works. I guess a game where a guy can flip a huge tank but can't a hold a tiny automatic weapon straight wouldn't be your idea of a good time then.[/quote] Did I say anything about the recoil of the weapon? No...don't think I did. Did I say anything about the accuracy of the weapon? No...I don't think I did. [/quote] No. You said "if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me." What I just pointed out to you makes no sense. Yet it's in halo 2. So stop trying to be a smartarse, because you can't wriggle out of the hole you just dug yourself into. Now do as you're told, and admit that this is all just because you personally don't like it, because all of your arguments are rubbish.[/quote] I said, "if a game makes absolutely no sense, it's not very fun for me" correct?? Well if everything in a game makes no sense to me, then it's not very fun. The more things that make sense to me, or at least somewhat makes sense, makes the game more fun IMO. I said that if an entire game made no sense then it is not very fun for me, so kindly stop misinterpreting what I'm saying, and trying to use it against me. That's sadly the worst kind of fallacy, and you just stooped to it. How about you do as you're told and stop being a prick yourself. My arguments are far more persuasive than yours, if you can even call what you did an argument. It is feasible that a person who is encased 2 ton armor would be able to flip a tank. Look in the books, it goes into great detail how the MC does some of the super-human strength things he does. I do not however see any explaination about how a pistol should have greater power, range, and accuracy than a rifle counter-part. Rifles have been superior to handguns for centuries, and it does not make any sense that they would change in the future. Oh, and to the OP, stop being ignorant because it makes it really hard for me to take your opinions seriously. This is a so-called debate, but you have not done anything but offer opinion and speculation. If you really want to make this a debate, I would suggest getting away from those, and try some supported evidence or even fact for a change. But you won't, not necessarily because you don't want to, but because this deals with something that cannot be spoken on as authority since it is SCIENCE FICTION!! However, trying to say that a pistol should kill quicker and more effeciently than a rifle is just way too far of a stretch of the imagination for me and apparently a lot of other people. ~B.B. [Edited on 03.22.2007 8:00 PM PDT]

What's the point of using any other gun if the pistol is an extremely strong short, mid, and long-range weapon? The scope on the pistal was good enough to replace picking up the sniper rifle. And in short ranges it was good enough to skip the assault rifle. So why have any other gun in the game then?

I don't care if its the future or not, you cannot change physics. Explosive rounds would do more damage true, but the damage would not be astronomically increased due to the bullets size. Pistols cannot have that kind of range and accuracy at above mentioned range.

It is the future. They also used explosive rounds to add additional damage. Be mindful of knowledge, young one.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Zagashi [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wing_Zero_X my thoughts are, ur insane, I know games arent meant to be real but come on, you would never see a pistol with a scope that can have the kind of range that gun did in halo, the damage it does I might be able to see, but being able to shoot from that far is rediculous for a pistol, thats what a rifle is for i.e. the BR[/quote] The scope is digital, meaning its just a camera on the barrel that uplinks to the chiefs, and marines visors. And as far as realism goes, the Halo 1 pistol was actually one of the most realistic guns. Real pistols can shoot that far in real life. [/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Zagashi [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wing_Zero_X my thoughts are, ur insane, I know games arent meant to be real but come on, you would never see a pistol with a scope that can have the kind of range that gun did in halo, the damage it does I might be able to see, but being able to shoot from that far is rediculous for a pistol, thats what a rifle is for i.e. the BR[/quote] The scope is digital, meaning its just a camera on the barrel that uplinks to the chiefs, and marines visors. And as far as realism goes, the Halo 1 pistol was actually one of the most realistic guns. Real pistols can shoot that far in real life. [/quote] Real pistols cannot and will never be able to shoot that far with any sembelance of accuracy, especially not, I'm a friggin sniper rifle in a pistol accuracy. The length of a barrel, the length of the round and the ballistics of a pistol all add up to that. The desert eagle is a .50 pistol and it has about 1/2 of the range of the M6D and at its maximum range is hard as hell to hit your target with. Please make sure you know what your talking about next time. The pistol should be single wieldable, no scope, 10 round clip, 4 shot head shot kills, 6 shot body kills and no auto aim. The range should be cut down to 1/2 of what it is. Pistols are designed to be SIDEARMS, not primary weapons. That's what the BR is for. [Edited on 03.22.2007 7:43 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 Not yet, I dont see how the range will increase due to a scope. [/quote]Tell me, young one. What is the purpose of a scope device?

[quote]I am confused on how a scope will increase the power of the weapon. [/quote]A very good question, young reader. You see, it becomes more powerful by having a greater range. I did not mean actual damage, but rather the range. Do you see?[/quote] Not yet, I dont see how the range will increase due to a scope. [/quote] ???? [Edited on 03.22.2007 7:40 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alexander IVX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alexander IVX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alexander IVX It is deeply recommended that there be no zoom capabilities.[/quote] Why is that?[/quote]Why, you ask? Well listen and I'll tell you, young man. It is a pistol. Normally the range is limited compared to a rifle. Now I'm not saying that it should be useless, but rather more of a special weapon. Like a Desert Eagle. Zoom is not necessary, it only makes it more powerful and isn't positive in this case. You see?[/quote] I am confused on how a scope will increase the power of the weapon. [/quote]A very good question, young reader. You see, it becomes more powerful by having a greater range. I did not mean actual damage, but rather the range. Do you see?[/quote] Not yet, I dont see how the range will increase due to a scope.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alexander IVX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thewhorocker15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alexander IVX It is deeply recommended that there be no zoom capabilities.[/quote] Why is that?[/quote]Why, you ask? Well listen and I'll tell you, young man. It is a pistol. Normally the range is limited compared to a rifle. Now I'm not saying that it should be useless, but rather more of a special weapon. Like a Desert Eagle. Zoom is not necessary, it only makes it more powerful and isn't positive in this case. You see?[/quote] I am confused on how a scope will increase the power of the weapon. [/quote]A very good question, young reader. You see, it becomes more powerful by having a greater range. I did not mean actual damage, but rather the range. Do you see?