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#Septagon

8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
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I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior But history has shown it does not WORK. Time has shown that these people do get it in their heads that it's silly once told so enough though. Don't we all remember the raad face, raaascal, and spartain ken threads being posted a half dozen times a day it seemed? Some of them got pretty silly. [/quote]You know, burrito, you don't need to single out specific community members in this. You're guilty of bad threads. I'm guilty of bad threads. Most everyone is. I do not care if some post more than others, that isn't really the point, and there is no need to outline who you view as a bad thread poster.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [/quote] False equivalency. Achronos wasn't attacking the OP for the reasons we're discussing. He was addressing a reply in the thread.[/quote]Addressing a single reply within a thread and not an OP, yes, but still a person illustrating to another just exactly what way they're being stupid and, more importantly, that they are, in fact, being stupid.

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  • Just ignore the idiots. Enjoy the smart ones. Like me! And lighten the hell up. Some are taking themselves and the "sanctity" of this forum a little too seriously. What we discuss here just isn't that important. It's fun, but not important.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spawn031 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AutobahnRacer If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.[/quote]But that is still just stirring the pot. Even if you take the matters privately, the situation is still growing. Eventually the problem would evolve beyond just 2 users and more will have to get involved. [/quote] I agree. In fact, I completely and totally agree. There is never cause to be harsh on or to attack certain individuals for unintentionally nonsensical behavior. I only suggested that because certain members have a very apparent need to involve themselves one way or another. I'd simply prefer for it to not bump the already 'bad' thread.

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  • 0
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [/quote] False equivalency. Achronos wasn't attacking the OP for the reasons we're discussing. He was addressing a reply in the thread.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck But are you saying it is wrong to show someone when they are being idiotic and how dumb it is to do so?[/quote]Yes. If I used this thread to tell you that you are an idiot and stupid (and I do not think that and I am not implying that at all, but just for hypothetical purposes), how likely would you be to think "oh wow I must actually be an idiot"? What about CrazzySnipe, who also favors this course of action? Not at all, I would wager. Instead, you would come back with reasons that you're not an idiot, and intimate instead that maybe I must be an idiot. The argument would go on, and others would join in, and soon the thread that I didn't want to see discussed in the first place would grow and grow. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=74071557]For example, just look at the thread that spawned this discussion in the first place[/url]. A 100-reply-long discussion isn't going to discourage anybody. In the history of the internet, nobody has ever successfully convinced another person that they're stupid. You can't and won't do it, no matter how many of "you" gang up on the person. There is, therefore, no scenario in which posting your opinions on the "stupidity" of another person's thread has ever had a positive effect. On the other hand, there are numerous scenarios, even right here on these very boards, where a thread with zero or very few replies (whether as a result of the thread being boring or as the result of a moderator lock) results in positive behavior change over time by the OP. To me, these observations are basic online community sociology, guys. Not too complicated. [Edited on 08.09.2012 4:50 PM PDT]

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  • A harsh or insulting reply to a post I make, no matter how stupid my post is, will not make me want to become more knowledgeable. It just doesn't work the way the OP wants it to. There aren't any good excuses to act that way towards someone.

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  • Just figured I'd leave [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=70774757&postRepeater1-p=3#70781135]this[/url] here. An obvious example of Achronos telling somebody that they're stupid and saying stupid things very openly and blatantly in a forum post, not a PM, and not ignoring the post and moving on. This is, as anyone who's seen him post knows, one of many, I just haven't bothered to get any others. This one just jumped out at me. And yes, I know. It's his website and he can do what he wants and post off-topic and yada yada yada. But that doesn't mean that clearly he thinks that, for whatever reason, this approach can be and has been and will continue to be (unless his opinion has changed) an effective way of fixing a situation in which a stupid person says a stupid thing.

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    Burrito, the term "new" is relative. Some people never venture to this forum and when they see that their voices aren't drowned out by "noise", they take a liking to this forum, only to be talked down to by jackwagons. Some of which, talk about how the other boards are hostile/bad.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances.[/quote]While the argument could be made that you're trying to "help" someone by pointing out their "stupid" threads/posts, I think it would be far more beneficial to simply ignore them. If everyone ignored threads they thought were stupid, the authors of those threads would most likely notice fewer replies to their threads and perhaps take a hint that their threads weren't worth discussing in the first place. Most of the time, the "stupid" threads are filled with people arguing with the OP about whether or not the thread is against the rules. If you truly wish to guide an ignorant user in the right direction, you could send them a private message. [Edited on 08.09.2012 4:44 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SkilPhil If people aren't willing to listen to people who are patient with them, they certainly wont be willing to listen to people who have become impatient with them...[/quote] I wouldn't call illustrating a persons stupidity to them a form of impatience. You as the observer are going, "That person should really see how dumb they look." You show them, tell them it's stupid, and leave it at that. Some may not care, but it could be argued that some might take a step back and say, "Wow, that was stupid of me." Is that not possible? I mean I know it can be hit or miss, but no more than patience would work. And it may be more effective than ignoring them.

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  • Why not implement a "sage" function. Basically it lets you reply to a thread(maybe to inform the OP, ala Helvick's idea) but it doesn't bump the thread and keep it alive(ala the mod's idea).

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  • I think if this were a thread on dealing with human psychology in everyday life, I would completely agree with everything OP said. Having said that, this is still an open forum to the public and no one who visits this website should be subjected to any sort of psychcological corrective measures by anyone here. Just my opinion! And sorry to interupt. PS I R Welder, sory bout the spellin [Edited on 08.09.2012 4:45 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog all it does is deter new members from posting in a community that they're obviously excited about, while simultaneously feeding the egos of some of the lifers here.[/quote]I disagree with you. I don't think it's a matter of new members posting threads they're excited about- in fact I think that's almost totally irrelevant in this case. New members can post threads that are stupid. Yet they won't be called out for it. Why? They're new! That's OK. People make mistakes. ... But when you've been here. And you are making deliberately ridiculous threads? There needs to be SOME line for the sake of the community in general and the user's future as well. The moderators can't draw the line. The posts/ threads are within the rules, and I wouldn't expect you to act on them. Us normal people are the ones that draw those lines between stupid, new, normal, and awesome in the public eye. [quote]Though we could argue about this all day long and neither of us would change our stance, this is just my two cents.[/quote]Well I feel that being open to opposing opinions is important when having a discussion. I've changed my mind in arguments before. It just doesn't happen often. To have a proper argument/discussion, I think you need to be open minded about the other side. Being set in 'I won't change my mind' doesn't quite do that. And, after all, as long as nobody is attacking the other person I think we'll be alright, neh? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x Hang on, burrito; I think you need to recheck your position on this issue.[/quote]It's OK. I saw the pre-edit. I take no offense. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if it makes you feel better I'm not deliberately being difficult in the 'Mythics Rock' character I'm so fond of. I do honestly believe this. [quote]You acknowledge that ignoring a thread you don't like is the right thing to do, but then, somehow, you go on to justify why you continue to post in threads you don't like.[/quote] No. I acknowledge that it is the right thing to TRY. But history has shown it does not WORK. Time has shown that these people do get it in their heads that it's silly once told so enough though. Don't we all remember the raad face, raaascal, and spartain ken threads being posted a half dozen times a day it seemed? Some of them got pretty silly. It wasn't the quantity that was irritating. It was that there was such a quantity of threads with such little [i]quality[/i]. In the end it all comes down to quality- I think that is what it's all about. That is why I feel people, eventually, must resort to actually taking some sort of action. In light of the thread that broke the camel's back, I am Batman. [quote]Achronos favors a "forum filter" idea [i]precisely because[/i] ignoring a bad thread is the right way to respond to it.[/quote]I disagree. Rather, I see its purpose as something along the lines of... The forum filter should be implemented because people like me ignoring it on its own does NOT work. Ignoring the threads does NOT reduce the threads of such low quality we see. If EVERYBODY ignored? Then yes, it would be better because people really WOULD give up. But we know that won't ever happen. As such, these threads persist no matter if some of us did honestly try ignoring the silly threads. This is the point where people take action into their own hands I believe. [quote]The report button is an already-implemented feature that is meant to accomplish this purpose.[/quote]No immediate visual sense of relief hurts this one. Though if you guys are capable of seeing what threads a user has reported, I think you'd find a fair number of posts in my 'report history.' I use it. [quote]If the best way to deal with a bad thread were to post to ridicule the OP and his ideas, Achronos would be looking at automated ways to ridicule the OP and his ideas. Not automated ways to [i]ignore[/i] a bad post or a bad user. How do you not see this?[/quote]The best way would be for EVERYBODY to ignore it or to make it so we never have to see it (without resorting to lessening our own sense of enjoyment after all these years by leaving the forum, something I have no intention of doing). As this is not the case, we have to take the next best thing- getting the user to simply stop on his own. [quote]Your opinions are your own[/quote]Well that's just, like, your opinion, man. [quote]to a person who has created a thread on something they find interesting, your opinions are worthless.[/quote]Well they wouldn't make the thread if the input of others was worthless in their eyes I think. But I digress. If they genuinely find it interesting, I think others would too. But somethings like what we've been seeing? Do you really think that much thought and interest is placed in the subject on their part? It isn't like there is some grey area for attacking a thread. If you aren't sure, you don't call it out. It's that simple. But for truly, completely obvious ones? Oh yeah. All over it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AutobahnRacer If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.[/quote]But that is still just stirring the pot. Even if you take the matters privately, the situation is still growing. Eventually the problem would evolve beyond just 2 users and more will have to get involved. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Specter Wolf I'd like to bring up the idea of an ignore/hide user option for the forums, to give people who just can't find the will to ignore stupidity a way to deal with it besides having to lash out at the poster. [/quote]That discussion has been beaten to death. Ignoring a user's post isn't difficult. I basically have my own ignore feature, and I use it quite frequently.

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  • Report and Move On I can't help but post that in threads that are dedicated to... let's say, the flood, saying that the forum is overrun at that particular moment in time with spam. As for actual threads that i feel need to be reported, i can't help but want to post 'report and move on' to let others know that they should stop replying to the damn thread. I know it's all in vein, but it helps me to believe that i'm doing my part. I would love to contribute to the forums being cleaner. I know i have my report button and my ignore feature [brain power, guys], but that only takes it so far. Every so often i PM Qbix specifically, especially in the early early early hours of my PST morning to say 'hey if you have time, check this thread', but hell.. He's only one dude, and he does indeed have a life. Only so much he can do. To aim more for the topic at hand, i've definitely become more of a sarcastic D-bag over the past year or two. I've been inspired by many a thing to be so harsh, and at points in time i've had to apologize to members for being so negative. Sometimes people just gotta check themselves before they wreck themselves.

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  • It boils down to the fact that this community is very young, in so many ways. This forum in particular is filled with a lot of the same personalities, and all it takes is one wrong post in a thread before it goes south. This is due in part to the speed in which threads here move. Threads on the Community Forum are slow, and deliberate. There is much to discuss, and just as much to understand. At the same time, this has many opposite reactions. Members here tend to often read a given post as they wish for it to translate, which can then be twisted into something hostile. At the same time, there are plenty of times when a user makes a given claim with no true logical thought behind it, to which you all like to call stupid. The problem in this instance is that, instead of politely correcting, or even just ignoring, this specific community can, at times, make incorrect statements become personal offenses. This, of course, is tell tale of a young community, one that does NOT take the time to talk things out in a logical and calm manner. In the end, just because someone seems to be an idiot, doesn't mean you gotta tell them that.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AutobahnRacer If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.[/quote]Now we're back to the idea that someone needs to be seen. I see a few ways to deal with this that aren't against a groups opinion. 1) PM Notification system. Makes it easier to see a PM 2) Thread lock feature. Locks a thread after a pre-set number of users down-votes the OP (Separate button for that). Then sends a PM to the thread creator that it was locked by the members because they disagree with the original post.

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  • I'm just going to weigh in on this with what might be a clarifying and more delineating post. Firstly, I want to point out that one of the greatest rhetorical fallacies in the realm of communication of thought is that of [i]argumentum ad hominem[/i], or an attempt to negate or weaken an opponent's argument by attacking certain characteristics or unrelated beliefs of the person supporting it. This is a rhetorical fallacy very close at heart to this thread, but I believe it also represents the dividing line in settling (or perhaps clarifying) this issue. I believe that if a thread is created with the intention of being stupid, or is so blatantly devoid of premeditation so as to be entirely incoherent, the best and only course of action is to ignore it. To attack the substance of the thread by calling the OP an idiot and using big vocabulary words to insult his intelligence - however justified - is both pedantic and a textbook example of [i]ad hominem[/i]. The exception to this rule I believe only applies in situations where the OP is new to the forums; a firm yet relenting tone can go a long way if you catch a new poster who is violating quite a few of the forum rules at once, such as proposing a feature for Halo 4 in the Community forum. You are not attacking his argument by insulting him, but rather making a lasting impression on this very impressionable new member, and if done with tact, it can be a boon to the health of the forum. Note that I use the phrase "firm yet relenting"; this is key. I think that a lot of the sample responses Helvek gave in the OP were much too harsh. But I think a little less than buddy-buddy tone can be helpful when correcting naive, yet sweepingly violate posts.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck The more belligerent and heavy headed individuals don't seek patience. They don't care, they don't listen to direction or respect when someone is trying to kindly take the time to teach them in a very positive manner. It is for these individuals I reserve the preference of stating to them your observations of their stupidity. [/quote] If people aren't willing to listen to people who are patient with them, they certainly wont be willing to listen to people who have become impatient with them, certainly not in the form of text on a forum anyway. When you meet people like that they can't be taught just using words, they need something more tangible to relate to ( take the naughty step for example) which is why, when you meet people like that on a forum, it's best just to move on because there isn't anything you can do with text on a screen to help them. [Edited on 08.09.2012 4:35 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck It seems a common theme is being challenged here. And oddly I value both sides... The side of sometimes ignoring and filtering. Then there is the side that challenges that by illustrating to someone their idiotic behavior. Neither side will ever be the "better choice". I think we should just accept that. And I am certainly not telling people to go around telling everyone they think is stupid, that they are stupid. I'm really just asking if it is suitable in specific instances. [/quote] I confess, that I am sometimes guilty of replying to someone's ignorance or foolishness with a snarky or a sarcastic comment. But I maintain that it is deliberately done without malice, without scorn, and without anger. For example, the member who wanted to "clear halo of retards" was told by me that he had my vote! But I believe that such replies I have made were never intended to "let an idiot know in no uncertain terms just how much of an idiot they are". That is (to me) a step too far and doesn't help anyone or anything.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck It seems a common theme is being challenged here. And oddly I value both sides... The side of sometimes ignoring and filtering. Then there is the side that challenges that by illustrating to someone their idiotic behavior. Neither side will ever be the "better choice". I think we should just accept that. And I am certainly not telling people to go around telling everyone they think is stupid, that they are stupid. I'm really just asking if it is suitable in specific instances. [/quote] Anything that bumps a 'bad thread' to the top of the forum isn't suitable in any situation, ever. I don't like the thread in question any more than you do, and thus, I certainly don't want to see it any longer than I have to. If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x If you think a thread sucks, DON'T POST IN IT. This has been common knowledge on bulletin boards and discussion forums in general for the last thirty years, and yet Bungie.net's community still can't seem to grasp the concept.[/quote] I'd like to bring up the idea of an ignore/hide user option for the forums, to give people who just can't find the will to ignore stupidity a way to deal with it besides having to lash out at the poster.

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  • Refer to my last post for a bit more clarification on my stance. But are you saying it is wrong to show someone when they are being idiotic and how dumb it is to do so? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck But is it not a disservice to the blatantly ignorant fool who is never given the opportunity to be scorned and shown his idiotic nature?[/quote]I see what you're doing here. The sad thing is that what you're saying rings true enough with enough of the community that it is important for us to make sure that everyone is well-aware of why this concept is wrong.[/quote]

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  • It seems a common theme is being challenged here. And oddly I value both sides... The side of sometimes ignoring and filtering. Then there is the side that challenges that by illustrating to someone their idiotic behavior. Neither side will ever be the "better choice". I think we should just accept that. And I am certainly not telling people to go around telling everyone they think is stupid, that they are stupid. I'm really just asking if it is suitable in specific instances.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck But is it not a disservice to the blatantly ignorant fool who is never given the opportunity to be scorned and shown his idiotic nature?[/quote] I consider Howard Stern to be a self-serving idiot. But I can't deny that there are plenty of people who consider him to be (if not a genius) at least worthy of their attention and time. So, what do I do? I don't listen to the man, I don't know who his sponsors are, I don't contribute to his social-ecostructure, and as a result I am blissfully unaware of anything that is occurring in his career/life. I also gain the benefit of never having my blood pressure raised or risking any rages over any of his antics. Are you suggesting that I would be doing myself and the rest of the world a service if I were to spend any time or effort to convince him and his fans that he's a tool? Because I don't see any possible value in expending energy in such an endeavor.

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