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#Septagon

8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
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I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

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  • I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta

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  • I think people have become too afraid to call out things or the OP of threads in fear of being banned. I think especially in the community forum people are afraid to admit they are wrong and when someone disagrees with them, people take it as flaming or trolling. You should be able to "call out" the OP or people for saying things but don't insult them doing it. Just explain how they are wrong and explain why you believe you are right. I think having different people's points of view is essential for any discussion. Certainly we wouldn't want everyone to cling to 1 idea. But, I guess you could say the community forum is really stubborn sometimes.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint of Taint I think some of you take this site and the comments made on it too seriously. [/quote]You're an idi- ... Wait, did a mod just encourage flaming?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 They're valid examples, but do they really need their usernames used?[/quote]Well I could have linked examples of silly threads but... that seemed to serve the same purpose. I'm not attacking those users. There is nothing wrong with those people- they did all reach an equilibrium and they're fine at this point. But... I might say they're fine in part because they were told about the imaginary line some of us hold in our heads. [quote] Damn it burrito, you're helping me to realize how much of a hypocrite i've become. [/quote]Sabotage.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint of Taint I think some of you take this site and the comments made on it too seriously. [/quote]Someone let this guy know he's an idiot.[/quote][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU0wyJxAZ6c]I think i'll just whisper[/url]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [/quote] May I point out, [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Unlocking this thread at the OP's request. If it turns into a piling on of any actual individuals, which a fair few people on this board have done in the past, I'm going to lock it again.[/quote] Also, [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 OP is bad and should feel bad.[/quote] [url=http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/369/762/7bb.jpg]>>>[/url]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x In the history of the internet, nobody has ever successfully convinced another person that they're stupid.[/quote] Really? Ive used the Internet for years, been mindlessly ignorant to things, been corrected and even admitted how stupid I must have looked, not knowing what I was taking about. Also, it is a tad presumptuous to assume in every scenario someone would argue that their behavior is stupid. Call THEM stupid. Sure you'll piss them off. Explain why their behavior looks idiotic, and of you're justified enough and right, who's to say (as I've said already), that person won't step back (as I have before) and say "Wow, I must have looked like an idiot".

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck I've read almost every reply. And each one of you are partly right. Depending on the specific circumstance of course. Some of it just boils down to belief, and at certain times I do not believe it is necessary to even try what I've suggested. But times when I see such stupidity I can't help but feel compelled to tell the person. But who I to do that? No one. I have no right. Doesn't mean I can't or I won't though. But that's just me. I'm glad we've actually been able to discuss this maturely thus far. These replies are some of the most stimulation I've read on here in months. Thank you. [/quote]I think most all of us are compelled to single out so called idiots and inform them of their incompetence. Whether it can change behavior or not is debatable. Ignorance of the perceived idiot is the best way to deal with a problem. The blacklist hides users, essentially ignoring them for everyone, fixing the problem.

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  • <3 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint of Taint I think some of you take this site and the comments made on it too seriously. [/quote]Someone let this guy know he's an idiot.[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint of Taint I think some of you take this site and the comments made on it too seriously. [/quote]You're an idiot. Foman told me to say that though so blame him. :P (<3 mah Vidmaster homie)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 You're guilty of bad threads.[/quote][url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=6606175&postRepeater1-p=1#6611183]You're a liar[/url]! [quote] I do not care if some post more than others, that isn't really the point, and there is no need to outline who you view as a bad thread poster.[/quote]We all know the threads. I think emphasizing situations where it has worked is absolutely relevant and necessary when the effectiveness of the method is being called into question. I'm not attacking the users. But they ARE valid examples.[/quote]They're valid examples, but do they really need their usernames used? I'm against the whole posterboy thing. Take it how you will, but hey... I guess this thread is asking about personal preference when dealing with what you determine to be idiocy. And yes, i'm guilty of calling specific users out too. Especially in private groups! Damn it burrito, you're helping me to realize how much of a hypocrite i've become.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint of Taint I think some of you take this site and the comments made on it too seriously. [/quote]Someone let this guy know he's an idiot.

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  • I think some of you take this site and the comments made on it too seriously.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkJet7 Why not implement a "sage" function. Basically it lets you reply to a thread(maybe to inform the OP, ala Helvick's idea) but it doesn't bump the thread(ala the mod's idea).[/quote] I reiterate, this would solve both side's problems.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 You're guilty of bad threads.[/quote][url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=6606175&postRepeater1-p=1#6611183]You're a liar[/url]! [quote] I do not care if some post more than others, that isn't really the point, and there is no need to outline who you view as a bad thread poster.[/quote]We all know the threads. I think emphasizing situations where it has worked is absolutely relevant and necessary when the effectiveness of the method is being called into question. I'm not attacking the users. But they ARE valid examples.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spawn031 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Specter Wolf I'd like to bring up the idea of an ignore/hide user option for the forums, to give people who just can't find the will to ignore stupidity a way to deal with it besides having to lash out at the poster. [/quote]That discussion has been beaten to death. Ignoring a user's post isn't difficult. I basically have my own ignore feature, and I use it quite frequently. [/quote] Indeed it's bordering on beating a dead horse at this point, and has boiled down to the same counter argument as well: "it's easy to ignore". It's apparent that it's not as easy for others that aren't you, the others spouting that argument, or even myself. Personally I probably wouldn't even use the very feature I've proposed several times. If said feature would in fact reduce blatant flaming and the like without the mods needing to intervene for every little thing, why is this a bad thing? Maybe if such a feature was in place people wouldn't feel the need to call someone an idiot or stupid. In fact I can quote something else Foman said in response to this thread: [quote]I honestly cannot think of a community that does a worse job at ignoring trolling and anything else it sees as a "bad" thread than we do, and it's shameful. Please do not encourage this kind of behavior by suggesting obnoxious responses to any thread.[/quote] That's something I've noticed as well, though admittedly I visit only a handful of other communities. However, there's someone else most other communities (who do a better job at ignoring this stuff than us) have in common, they tend to have an ignore feature built into the forums. Now that could be a coincidence I've noticed, or perhaps it works without killing a community as some believe it might. If I could run a test on this in a controlled environment I would, but alas I don't think I could muster up the labrats for that. [Edited on 08.09.2012 4:58 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck And each one of you are partly right. [/quote]Actually some of us are completely right.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Da Muffin Man I'm just going to weigh in on this with what might be a clarifying and more delineating post. Firstly, I want to point out that one of the greatest rhetorical fallacies in the realm of communication of thought is that of [i]argumentum ad hominem[/i], or an attempt to negate or weaken an opponent's argument by attacking certain characteristics or unrelated beliefs of the person supporting it. This is a rhetorical fallacy very close at heart to this thread, but I believe it also represents the dividing line in settling (or perhaps clarifying) this issue. I believe that if a thread is created with the intention of being stupid, or is so blatantly devoid of premeditation so as to be entirely incoherent, the best and only course of action is to ignore it. To attack the substance of the thread by calling the OP an idiot and using big vocabulary words to insult his intelligence - however justified - is both pedantic and a textbook example of [i]ad hominem[/i]. The exception to this rule I believe only applies in situations where the OP is new to the forums; a firm yet relenting tone can go a long way if you catch a new poster who is violating quite a few of the forum rules at once, such as proposing a feature for Halo 4 in the Community forum. You are not attacking his argument by insulting him, but rather making a lasting impression on this very impressionable new member, and if done with tact, it can be a boon to the health of the forum. Note that I use the phrase "firm yet relenting"; this is key. I think that a lot of the sample responses Helvek gave in the OP were much too harsh. But I think a little less than buddy-buddy tone can be helpful when correcting naive, yet sweepingly violate posts.[/quote] Sorry to self-quote, but I want to clarify and my post is a page ago. Overall I disagree with attacking somebody to deter future idiocy. I think that [b]the sheer disappointment of creating a thread with 0 replies (we all know the feeling), is more than enough to make a person reevaluate their posting style and improve it.[/b] This just requires people to actually ignore these idiotic posts. However, as Foman pointed out: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x I honestly cannot think of a community that does a worse job at ignoring trolling and anything else it sees as a "bad" thread than we do, and it's shameful. Please do not encourage this kind of behavior by suggesting obnoxious responses to any thread.[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Burrito, the term "new" is relative.[/quote]You are right. [quote] Some people never venture to this forum and when they see that their voices aren't drowned out by "noise", they take a liking to this forum, only to be talked down to by jackwagons.[/quote]My name is not jack and when I was in pre-school my mother refused to get me a wagon. Anywho. This is true. But while I don't speak for everybody, I know that I personally DO give leeway. I do. In fact let's be more specific. The hoobla threads. As far as I know, I have never called out one of his threads for being dumb. I think I'm quite tolerant. In fact in fact in fact in fact, I didn't even do it this time! I made a semi-passive comment about my opinion of the thread's quality. I expounded only after a user that disagreed with a user that agreed with me (greeception almost!) called the user on 'my side' a troll for expressing the belief more... well, more openly than I. I don't know who has done it too early. I don't know who takes the things too far. I can only speak for myself. I firmly believe that I give PLENTY of leeway, and I am VERY patient with threads. I might even contribute to them despite my better judgement and logic posted already in this thread. ... But there is a line. There is a point where I believe the user needs to be made aware of this line. And the only way to make them aware is to tell them. That doesn't mean attacking them. But it does mean making them aware that they need to think about their threads more. Make them... ''better,'' however subjective that may be. This is all, like, my opinion, man. Seriously. Lots of folks disagree with me. The premise of this thread is mocking in itself I'm well aware. But that doesn't change what I believe. Eh.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 OP is bad and should feel bad.[/quote]inb4Crazyusesthis

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  • OP is bad and should feel bad.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 If bad threads, bad posts, bad behaviors, and bad habits are encouraged and played off as something to not worry about or, rather, as someone having harmless fun who needs to be let alone, and aren't looked at as something that needs to be fixed and addressed, then we're going to continue to have these bad posts, threads, habits, and behaviors.[/quote]In the context of a high-traffic forum, simply reporting the thread and having the person get warned or banned accomplishes this a lot more effectively than telling them that their thread was bad.

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  • I've read almost every reply. And each one of you are partly right. Depending on the specific circumstance of course. Some of it just boils down to belief, and at certain times I do not believe it is necessary to even try what I've suggested. But times when I see such stupidity I can't help but feel compelled to tell the person. But who I to do that? No one. I have no right. Doesn't mean I can't or I won't though. But that's just me. I'm glad we've actually been able to discuss this maturely thus far. These replies are some of the most stimulation I've read on here in months. Thank you.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] R3ACTlON A harsh or insulting reply to a post I make, no matter how stupid my post is, will not make me want to become more knowledgeable. It just doesn't work the way the OP wants it to. There aren't any good excuses to act that way towards someone.[/quote]In fact, I would say meticulously finding holes in my argument would encourage me to back check my facts.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Is that not possible? I mean I know it can be hit or miss, but no more than patience would work. And it may be more effective than ignoring them. [/quote] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZD-R6xVk3w]hmmm...[/url]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior But history has shown it does not WORK. Time has shown that these people do get it in their heads that it's silly once told so enough though. Don't we all remember the raad face, raaascal, and spartain ken threads being posted a half dozen times a day it seemed? Some of them got pretty silly. [/quote]You know, burrito, you don't need to single out specific community members in this. You're guilty of bad threads. I'm guilty of bad threads. Most everyone is. I do not care if some post more than others, that isn't really the point, and there is no need to outline who you view as a bad thread poster.

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