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8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
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I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 I'm gonna stop making long posts. I think I'm doing something wrong. Probably posting in invisible ink or something. Either way, like I said, I'm clearly doing something wrong.[/quote]Or maybe it's because you're so smart, nobody can think of an intelligent reply to you! That's what [u]I[/u] always choose to believe! :P (In all seriousness, just your posts were long and I'm not really reading long posts that aren't quoting me because I'm lazy, hah).

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] R3ACTlON [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Delta 15t I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta [/quote] I think the best thing to do if you don't like someone's post or them in general is to just not respond to them. [/quote] Yet you're against an ignore feature? The perfect response dis-abler?[/quote] To bring up that point, you don't need a feature for that. There really isn't that much of a problem, it is only for a few users. Why I am mainly against it is akin to the same logic as this thread. People want to use intimidation, flaming, and general rudeness to respond to people they don't like or don't agree with. A feature won't fix the attitudes of the people, that is something they have to overcome themselves. But really, it isn't hard to not start something on here. Just don't flame someone and there won't be problems. If you do flame someone, you are breaking the rules and the mod will deal with you. It is the circle of life.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 can't we all just get along :'([/quote]Y U TAKE 4 PAGES TO SAY THIS? But really, we should all take a vacation or something....[/quote] Seattle, WA. Labor Day weekend. Didn't you get the memo?[/quote]I believe we should continue this discussion over some Qdoba.

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  • I'm gonna stop making long posts. I think I'm doing something wrong. Probably posting in invisible ink or something. Either way, like I said, I'm clearly doing something wrong.

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  • Ohhh boy, you got me there! [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Assuming opinion to be fact. Assuming in absolute one response will pretty much be how everyone will react is rather ignorant. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck And each one of you are partly right. [/quote]Actually some of us are completely right.[/quote][/quote]Is not assuming that I was talking about myself or, in fact, any other particular reply equally ignorant? ;-)[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CAVX Why feel so entitled that you have a genuine desire to just rail on people and insult them? Is that truly what we want to accomplish here? If we didn't have this kind of an attitude around here, I imagine we'd easily tell the difference between "nice guy" and "entitled forum cop", the latter of which, funny enough, often breaks the rules. tl;dr I guess I just accused people of elitism.[/quote]This post was good and it made me feel bad. Oh so guilty, indeed. I was once the newbiest of the newbies. I was lucky enough not to be hazed so harshly.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 Oh buddy. I could go off and link every single reply you've posted where you've said something about (insert anonymouse constant-thread-poster here) in a negative manner, but that wouldn't really serve any purpose in this thread.[/quote]... I would actually appreciate that. I honestly don't think I attack other users for stupid threads. I can think of... three times on the top of my head I've called out threads. If you can find times where I've been THAT discourteous when discussing threads I personally view as stupid, it would definitely go a mile to making me change how I do things absolutely. And I'm quite serious. [quote]'lol y u make this thread about you?'[/quote]Four. And that time was because I posted on topic, come back, and every single post was replying to a specific user with that user talking about himself. Which... needed to stop. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 There's no need for it. can't we all just get along :'([/quote]I'll give hugs, but no kisses. OK kisses. But no tongues. ... OK tongues. [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:09 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Delta 15t I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta [/quote] I think the best thing to do if you don't like someone's post or them in general is to just not respond to them. [/quote] Yet you're against an ignore feature? The perfect response dis-abler?

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  • Suddenly it seems like people think I'm insinuating that in a debate, attacking someone's character is what you should do. That's not what I'm getting at, at all. Just so we are clear...

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  • 0
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CAVX tl;dr I guess I just accused people of elitism.[/quote] CAVX has come full circle.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 can't we all just get along :'([/quote]Y U TAKE 4 PAGES TO SAY THIS? But really, we should all take a vacation or something....[/quote] Seattle, WA. Labor Day weekend. Didn't you get the memo?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Assuming opinion to be fact. Assuming in absolute one response will pretty much be how everyone will react is rather ignorant. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck And each one of you are partly right. [/quote]Actually some of us are completely right.[/quote][/quote]Is not assuming that I was talking about myself or, in fact, any other particular reply equally ignorant? ;-)

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  • I agree to a point. If a user post some about 343 making Halo Reach. I would take that conversation to pm. To avoid any other users who are not as nice. We are always going to have users who insult others character. That's just online forums for you, no matter how many threads are made which is fact. All we can do is do our best, and try and do what is best for the community. [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:11 PM PDT]

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  • Are we so jaded that we have forgotten when we were in those positions? I can't believe how condescending this thread is. The fact that so many of you think of your fellow community members as idiots is really disheartening. Apparently you don't remember when you were new here, or anywhere else on the internet. Or when you were blinded by hidden motive, et. al. You just blanket the term "idiot" on all these people? That's horribly cruel. Attacking someone's character never fixes anything, including the character. Ignoring someone is always better than insulting them. I've seen it suggested in this thread that we are the ones responsible for cleaning up the forums. That we are somehow the people who can "read between the lines" of the forum rules and enforce them ourselves, and that we need to turn everyone into a good member. If you're like that, I believe you're feeling a little too entitled. Why feel so entitled that you have a genuine desire to just rail on people and insult them? Is that truly what we want to accomplish here? If we didn't have this kind of an attitude around here, I imagine we'd easily tell the difference between "nice guy" and "entitled forum cop", the latter of which, funny enough, often breaks the rules. tl;dr I guess I just accused people of elitism.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 can't we all just get along :'([/quote]Y U TAKE 4 PAGES TO SAY THIS? But really, we should all take a vacation or something....

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] R3ACTlON [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 I think people have become too afraid to call out things or the OP of threads in fear of being banned. I think especially in the community forum people are afraid to admit they are wrong and when someone disagrees with them, people take it as flaming or trolling. You should be able to "call out" the OP or people for saying things but don't insult them doing it. Just explain how they are wrong and explain why you believe you are right. I think having different people's points of view is essential for any discussion. Certainly we wouldn't want everyone to cling to 1 idea. But, I guess you could say the community forum is really stubborn sometimes. [/quote]You already can explain why someone is wrong. This is about whether or not doing so in an inflammatory manner helps the person understand they are wrong.[/quote] You don't need to be a jerk to someone to help them get the message. No one likes to get talked down to and it only discourages people, especially people unfamiliar with all the rules. My point was that I have noticed people in this forum have a hard time handling criticism or a different view and a simple disagreement can turn into a flame war. That is why you have to be careful on this forum in particular if you disagree with the viewpoints of certain people to do it in a mature and respectful way. All flaming does is lead to more flaming.

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  • Exactly. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Delta 15t I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta [/quote] I think the best thing to do if you don't like someone's post or them in general is to just not respond to them. [/quote]

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  • Quite honestly, there is nothing positive in insulting another user. Nothing is gained, everything is at risk to be lost. In a Presidential debate, if one candidate were to make a personal insult towards the other, there would be outrage. So who are we to say that our debates, when they happen, are not of the same importance? Are we just not capable of the same higher level of thinking to that of a president? Refrain from personal insults, and you may find any disagreement works out for the better.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 They're valid examples, but do they really need their usernames used?[/quote]Well I could have linked examples of silly threads but... that seemed to serve the same purpose. I'm not attacking those users. There is nothing wrong with those people- they did all reach an equilibrium and they're fine at this point. But... I might say they're fine in part because they were told about the imaginary line some of us hold in our heads. [quote] Damn it burrito, you're helping me to realize how much of a hypocrite i've become. [/quote]Sabotage.[/quote]Oh buddy. I could go off and link every single reply you've posted where you've said something about (insert anonymouse constant-thread-poster here) in a negative manner, but that wouldn't really serve any purpose in this thread. What i can do, though, is say that certain users latch onto other users. They deem someone a bad poster, and in ANY chance they get they speak down to the OP, or even just quote the user to speak down to them saying 'lol y u make this thread about you?' There's no need for it. can't we all just get along :'(

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Delta 15t I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta [/quote] I think the best thing to do if you don't like someone's post or them in general is to just not respond to them.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 I think people have become too afraid to call out things or the OP of threads in fear of being banned. I think especially in the community forum people are afraid to admit they are wrong and when someone disagrees with them, people take it as flaming or trolling. You should be able to "call out" the OP or people for saying things but don't insult them doing it. Just explain how they are wrong and explain why you believe you are right. I think having different people's points of view is essential for any discussion. Certainly we wouldn't want everyone to cling to 1 idea. But, I guess you could say the community forum is really stubborn sometimes. [/quote]You already can explain why someone is wrong. This is about whether or not doing so in an inflammatory manner helps the person understand they are wrong.

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  • Wow, it's funny because this kind of references my OP. Assuming opinion to be fact. We're talking social interaction. Each person is unique in how they will react to a remark. Assuming in an absolute single response of how almost everyone will react is rather ignorant. Which is why I said we are all "partly" right. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck And each one of you are partly right. [/quote]Actually some of us are completely right.[/quote] [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:05 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Rob Stucco [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 If bad threads, bad posts, bad behaviors, and bad habits are encouraged and played off as something to not worry about or, rather, as someone having harmless fun who needs to be let alone, and aren't looked at as something that needs to be fixed and addressed, then we're going to continue to have these bad posts, threads, habits, and behaviors.[/quote]In the context of a high-traffic forum, simply reporting the thread and having the person get warned or banned accomplishes this a lot more effectively than telling them that their thread was bad.[/quote]There is a difference between a bad, stupid, idiotic thread and a thread that "technically" violates the rules and something that any given forum ninja is willing to ban, lock, and warn for. I would give specific examples, but, as I said before, that would violate TU's rule and risk me losing my shiny dull-grey title bar.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck But are you saying it is wrong to show someone when they are being idiotic and how dumb it is to do so?[/quote]Yes. If I used this thread to tell you that you are an idiot and stupid (and I do not think that and I am not implying that at all, but just for hypothetical purposes), how likely would you be to think "oh wow I must actually be an idiot"? What about CrazzySnipe, who also favors this course of action? Not at all, I would wager. Instead, you would come back with reasons that you're not an idiot, and intimate instead that maybe I must be an idiot. The argument would go on, and others would join in , and soon the thread that I didn't want to see discussed in the first place [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=74071557]would grow to nearly 100 replies[/url]. In the history of the internet, nobody has ever successfully convinced another person that they're stupid. You can't and won't do it, no matter how many of "you" gang up on the person. There is, therefore, no scenario in which posting your opinions on the "stupidity" of another person's thread has ever had a positive effect. On the other hand, there are numerous scenarios, even right here on these very boards, where a thread with zero or very few replies (whether as a result of the thread being boring or as the result of a moderator lock) results in positive behavior change over time by the OP. To me, these observations are basic online community sociology, guys. Not too complicated.[/quote]There is a stark difference between someone acting in a way that is generally agreed upon both by society and any given sub-society (for example, The Septagon) as either unacceptable or inappropriate to the point where any given person's continued use of said action constantly evokes a rapid flood of people pointing out that actions unacceptability or inappropriateness. Yes, the masses or the people who dominate any given culture or group aren't always "right" by all outward and objective appearances (/activategodwinslaw), but if someone wants to continue to act in a manner which is adverse to the norm of any given culture or group, then they should certainly not do so in the hope that they will not suffer any sort of objection to their action(s). If you join a My Little Pony forum and do nothing but discuss how terribly written you think the backstories for all of the ponies are, then you're likely going to be shunned from and rejected by the majority of the community. While that's a bit of a different example as it's violating the basic tenants of the reason for the existence of the site (the people on it think MLP is the -blam!-), the same goes for any unwritten behavioral rule. These aren't even things specific to Bungie.net. If the unwritten rule in this situation is: [quote]Don't post stupid -blam!- or make stupid threads about stupid things that make no sense or have no point.[/quote] Then it should not take very long at all (especially with the length at which some people have been with the community) to understand and recognize what that community considers to be "stupid", "-blam!-", "mak[ing] no sense", or "hav[ing] no point". If you want to be in the "Kids Who Wear Red T-Shirts Club", you're gonna get some grief if you show up in a Blue sweater. People aren't going to ignore you until you get the hint that you should probably change the garment covering your torso, they're going to ask you how you could be so stupid as to show up to a KWWRTSC meeting in a Blue Sweater, and tell you why that's stupid. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not hard to figure out what a community considers to be stupid, and that continuing to do things said community considers to be stupid should be and should be anticipated to be met with objection by said community. Leaving people alone to do stupid -blam!- doesn't make them do less stupid -blam!-. (I apologize for my continued use of the s-word in this post; I'm not in the mood for eloquence.)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Da Muffin Man Sorry to self-quote, but I want to clarify and my post is a page ago. Overall I disagree with attacking somebody to deter future idiocy. I think that [b]the sheer disappointment of creating a thread with 0 replies (we all know the feeling), is more than enough to make a person reevaluate their posting style and improve it.[/b] [/quote]Didn't want you to feel lonely with nobody replying to your post ;-) All the same, though, I agree completely, and whether the zero replies happens because of a lock or because the thread is not interesting to the Community, the change in behavior to avoid future zero-reply threads (except for a select few who react to such events in entirely the wrong way) is usually positive.

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  • I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta

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