JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#Community

8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
228

I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? [/quote] Look, if I want to look for an intellectual topic to post in, I look at the groups. If not, I'll be on the Flood or Community. It's that simple, for me.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MightyMarcher01 Okay, I just joined this thread, and it will take WAY to ling to read all the comments and find out the current conversation. I read the OP, though. My discussion: Why do people have to insult people on these forums anyway? Usually when someone insults someone on the internet they usually mean something a lot less than what they said. Why do people on the internet even enjoy making someone feel bad?[/quote] There are many theories but I think it is because people feel they can get away with more things on the internet because they are not facing the person. I am sure many people here are very good people IRL but sometimes on Bungie.net people can be really mean. I think we come to a point where we feel we can do anything and we begin to just see text and don't think about the people behind them. This makes me worried for when the "newbs" come on this forum. As the "inhabitants" of the community forum, it should be our job to be welcoming and accepting of new people. We are going to meet many new users of every attitude, age, etc. There will be people you may not like, there may be people you meet that you one day will call friend. But, you should still try and be nice to all of them (or atleast not respond with flaming to their posts). We don't need this drama on the mains and it makes everyone on the community forum and the rest of the community look bad. We are better than flaming people we don't agree with to make a point. If we act like this to people, new users are not going to want to come back and we are basically saying we tolerate this behavior. [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:39 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 If someone is acting belligerent, they should be dealt with or you should PM them saying that you don't like that behavior. If it continues, then the mods should take over. [/quote]But who are you/Who am i to decide that someone needs to be 'dealt with' At the end of the day, i'd just be some random guy on the internet saying 'Man, you need to take a chill pill'. Will this actually cause a user to change their posting habits? More than likely not. If someone is acting belligerent, why not just do the whole 'report and move on' thing, rather than investing time letting them know they're being dicks because we've given ourselves the golden star of approval saying we know what's best and everyone should listen to us? [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:39 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Obi Wan Canoli Didn't read, don't care.[/quote]<3

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • The only way to win is not to play, basically.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Didn't read, don't care.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Rainbow A Dash Many people seem to have... undisciplined moral codes it seems.[/quote]Morality is even more debatable than this topic.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Many people seem to have... undisciplined moral codes it seems.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 0
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 ]You're never going to get a situation in which everyone is smart enough to ignore a stupid thread. And if 45 of the 51 posts in your brand spankin' new hot-topic thread are telling you that your ideas, posts, and thread(s) are stupid, incoherent, and/or nonsense, and you aren't even a little motivated to change your ways then you're clearly a troll who gets off on seeing people dislike you and you're an unsalvagably lost cause. (And I do not think anyone on this forum to be that.)[/quote] You're actually more likely to get that person to lash out against you and (as Fo has already mentioned in this thread) get two or more people arguing. Nobody wins in that scenario.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Gents, we are getting along. If I met any of you in person, I'd buy you a beer. If you were under the legal drinking age Id give you a can of pop. I made this thread to see what people thought, not to have a debate won or lost, or to have conflict. I just intrigued by the thought of what if we treated every belligerent dumb person in a way that shows them how ridiculously dumb they seem. Not to try and put them down, but to make them see how hilariously stupid they're behaving. [/quote] That is a different story. If someone is acting belligerent, they should be dealt with or you should PM them saying that you don't like that behavior. If it continues, then the mods should take over. As for "dumb" people, I don't think anyone here is dumb, but I do think people have made dumb threads. But "dumb" is sort of relative especially if the thread is meant to be a joke. It is probably best to either ask the OP or poster for more clarification or to just ignore the OP all together. Now, what happens if you respond to these people?: - The belligerent people will keep flaming back to your flaming and then it will get ugly. - the "dumb" people as you call them will get really upset and you will ruin the thread. All around flaming these people is not a good idea and leads to more headaches and messes the mods have to clean up. "Treat others the way you want to be treated" If you act in a calm, mature, and responsible manner, that should lower most of the issues. If you have a problem, PM the user and keep it off the mains. If it is bad, PM a mod.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I usually use PM's for that. I hardly ever send those PM's out but they happen once in a while.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Okay, I just joined this thread, and it will take WAY to ling to read all the comments and find out the current conversation. I read the OP, though. My discussion: Why do people have to insult people on these forums anyway? Usually when someone insults someone on the internet they usually mean something a lot less than what they said. Why do people on the internet even enjoy making someone feel bad?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Gents, we are getting along. If I met any of you in person, I'd buy you a beer. If you were under the legal drinking age Id give you a can of pop. I made this thread to see what people thought, not to have a debate won or lost, or to have conflict. I just intrigued by the thought of what if we treated every belligerent dumb person in a way that shows them how ridiculously dumb they seem. Not to try and put them down, but to make them see how hilariously stupid they're behaving. [/quote]But you can make them seem hilariously stupid by effortlessly tearing apart their thoughts in a manner that is ruthless and efficient while leaving no doubt they are wrong. ;..;

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe Y U TAKE 4 PAGES TO SAY THIS? But really, we should all take a vacation or something....[/quote] Seattle, WA. Labor Day weekend. Didn't you get the memo?[/quote]I believe we should continue this discussion over some Qdoba.[/quote]They better make burritos. /derails thread[/quote]Few blocks down from the convention center. It's quite literally Chipotle with Nacho Cheese. Met walshy there last time i was at pax. Joeski was creaming himself over finding him in the bathroom[/quote]Oh, I can do Chipotle, Chipotle is good. You know, I've always wanted to see what the West Coast is like, guess PAX would be as good a time as any, yea? Screaming in the bathroom. Hm....

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Rob Stucco [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 There is a difference between a bad, stupid, idiotic thread and a thread that "technically" violates the rules and something that any given forum ninja is willing to ban, lock, and warn for. I would give specific examples, but, as I said before, that would violate TU's rule and risk me losing my shiny dull-grey title bar.[/quote]Still, if those threads see no replies, the person making them is generally going to be more discouraged than if members call it out for being dumb. All that leads to is another argument. There are also some people who are really just looking for attention, positive or not.[/quote]You're never going to get a situation in which everyone is smart enough to ignore a stupid thread. And if 45 of the 51 posts in your brand spankin' new hot-topic thread are telling you that your ideas, posts, and thread(s) are stupid, incoherent, and/or nonsense, and you aren't even a little motivated to change your ways then you're clearly a troll who gets off on seeing people dislike you and you're an unsalvagably lost cause. (And I do not think anyone on this forum to be that.)

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Gents, we are getting along. If I met any of you in person, I'd buy you a beer. If you were under the legal drinking age Id give you a can of pop. I made this thread to see what people thought, not to have a debate won or lost, or to have conflict. I just intrigued by the thought of what if we treated every belligerent dumb person in a way that shows them how ridiculously dumb they seem. Not to try and put them down, but to make them see how hilariously stupid they're behaving.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] R3ACTlON [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Delta 15t I think people take things [i] way [/i] too seriously here. I'm guilty of doing so in the past. Over time though, I realized that I really don't need to worry about someones post or troll or whatever. I'm chill over in this corner. If you want to chill and hang, cool. If you don't, well, see you later. ~Delta [/quote] I think the best thing to do if you don't like someone's post or them in general is to just not respond to them. [/quote] Yet you're against an ignore feature? The perfect response dis-abler?[/quote] To bring up that point, you don't need a feature for that. There really isn't that much of a problem, it is only for a few users. Why I am mainly against it is akin to the same logic as this thread. People want to use intimidation, flaming, and general rudeness to respond to people they don't like or don't agree with. A feature won't fix the attitudes of the people, that is something they have to overcome themselves. But really, it isn't hard to not start something on here. Just don't flame someone and there won't be problems. If you do flame someone, you are breaking the rules and the mod will deal with you. It is the circle of life. [/quote] We aren't concerned about the attitudes of users, rather what they do as a result. If I (for example) absolutely hate you, then I use an ignore feature, I can't respond negatively to you at all, which is the problem in the first place. The attitude isn't the problem, it's the action the comes from it. If you can't do the action, the attitude won't become something that everyone sees or gets turned off by. People are entitled to hate whatever they want, it's what they do about it that matters. I could have a burning hatred of purple teddy bears, but you wouldn't know unless I acted on it.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it.[/quote] Wrong. /thread You do not need to say anything else unless you think they will learn from it. [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:20 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 can't we all just get along :'([/quote]Y U TAKE 4 PAGES TO SAY THIS? But really, we should all take a vacation or something....[/quote] Seattle, WA. Labor Day weekend. Didn't you get the memo?[/quote]I believe we should continue this discussion over some Qdoba.[/quote]They better make burritos. /derails thread[/quote]Few blocks down from the convention center. It's quite literally Chipotle with Nacho Cheese. Met walshy there last time i was at pax. Joeski was creaming himself over finding him in the bathroom

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 can't we all just get along :'([/quote]Were it so easy. I'm indifferent about this. I think users should be more aware of what they're posting before they post it. After all, we're here for discussion and when someone feels the need to post a thread, they should in someway encourage a discussion. However, the difficult part is when you always have a constant influx of new members. Every day there are always new visitors to any website and you're never going to achieve that perfect clique of users. (Well you can, just make a private group and invite members that you like to it)... and some people do that. I'm willing to bet that in the prime of any Bungie game, where new threads would literally be off the front page in about 30 seconds, that 80% of those threads could be answered by a simple Google search. Anyone remember the Halo 3 forum and the "searchbar" posts? You'd eventually think that users would get the hint and actually search for something before they start a new topic. I can't remember who said this previously in this thread, but someone mentioned that it really is because this community as a whole is young. But I feel a community on almost any game forum is always young. You always have new guys and old farts that have been around for years. Just the diversity in how we all think is enough to have discussions for years, but is that going to be anything worth taking part it? That's up to you and you alone. Could we live in a perfect community forum world? Sure, but probably not. But that's just my opinion.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 The point I'm trying to make is that it's not hard to figure out what a community considers to be stupid, and that continuing to do things said community considers to be stupid should be and should be anticipated to be met with objection by said community. Leaving people alone to do stupid -blam!- doesn't make them do less stupid -blam!-.[/quote]But yet, I and others in this thread have made the argument (very convincingly, IMHO) that "objection" by the community is most effective when it comes in the form of silence. This is the norm on other boards and other forums -- even on the most truly brutal communities such as /b/ -- and it works so marvelously well EVERYWHERE and in every internet bulletin board/discussion forum situation that I am truly shocked that anybody thinks otherwise. No need to rehash the arguments in favor of ignoring bad posts rather than replying with "you're an idiot." All of your analogies have been about inapplicable and irrelevant IRL situations, and in the one applicable analogy you made -- the analogy of a person trolling an MLP forum -- you yourself admitted that trolling would result in being "shunned and rejected" by that community's members. Exactly the kind of action that I am advocating. [Edited on 08.09.2012 5:19 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Double post DGAF -Does anyone remember the 'Internet bullying' thread a year or two back? That thread received such hate. Not only because of the OP, but because of how extreme some people define 'bullying' as, and how silly people find the word 'internet' to be when placed before it. It really was the same thread as this, though. A user pointing out how much hate is given/received within this community and how tiring/hurtful/stupid it can be. I feel that thread went nowhere because it was centered around one user that was actually experiencing the mass amounts of negativity, rather than our buddy helveck here asking a big big question and trying to get us to think. Bad OP vs Good OP Discussion vs Flaming

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CAVX Why feel so entitled that you have a genuine desire to just rail on people and insult them? Is that truly what we want to accomplish here? If we didn't have this kind of an attitude around here, I imagine we'd easily tell the difference between "nice guy" and "entitled forum cop", the latter of which, funny enough, often breaks the rules. tl;dr I guess I just accused people of elitism.[/quote]This post was good and it made me feel bad. Oh so guilty, indeed. I was once the newbiest of the newbies. I was lucky enough not to be hazed so harshly.[/quote] To be completely honest, right now this forum is not equipped or ready to deal with newbies. If Destiny was announced tomorrow, all the "regulars" would eat the new people alive. People have have this attitude of superiority and entitlement that they want to be "that guy" who goes up to cars in the parking lot and clips notes of violations even though he has no authority recognized by the government to do so.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 There is a difference between a bad, stupid, idiotic thread and a thread that "technically" violates the rules and something that any given forum ninja is willing to ban, lock, and warn for. I would give specific examples, but, as I said before, that would violate TU's rule and risk me losing my shiny dull-grey title bar.[/quote]Still, if those threads see no replies, the person making them is generally going to be more discouraged than if members call it out for being dumb. All that leads to is another argument. There are also some people who are really just looking for attention, positive or not.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] edableshoe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 can't we all just get along :'([/quote]Y U TAKE 4 PAGES TO SAY THIS? But really, we should all take a vacation or something....[/quote] Seattle, WA. Labor Day weekend. Didn't you get the memo?[/quote]I believe we should continue this discussion over some Qdoba.[/quote]They better make burritos. /derails thread

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 I'm gonna stop making long posts. I think I'm doing something wrong. Probably posting in invisible ink or something. Either way, like I said, I'm clearly doing something wrong.[/quote]Or maybe it's because you're so smart, nobody can think of an intelligent reply to you! That's what [u]I[/u] always choose to believe! :P (In all seriousness, just your posts were long and I'm not really reading long posts that aren't quoting me because I'm lazy, hah).

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

2 3 4 5 6 7 8
You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon