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#Septagon

8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
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I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TheCraftedPixel [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 It is easy to say be kind but the fact is some people here are real jerks and will never learn. [/quote] This user is right. [/quote]Perspective. I have seen what you describe, and dare I say I may have joined in from time to time. Perhaps that is a dialog we could follow. Would you argue for more moderation to combat this? Personally, I think that most of what I see on the forums now is fine. That is not to say that it has always been this way, we have our ups and downs.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 I wouldn't try and bring up semantics on here. People are always rude to others they don't like and will make sure the OP of the thread and everyone is aware of it. If the mods really banned all the people from the tongue and cheek stupidity people pull. 75% of the septagon would be banned. (Though some people need it). It is easy to say be kind but the fact is some people here are real jerks and will never learn. [/quote] This user is right.

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  • I am opposed to capital punishment; I feel that it has no place in any competently planned justice system. However, there are certain individuals, whose number is sufficiently small that I can count them on the fingers of one hand, for whom I am willing to make an exception. Calling people out as being stupid follows a similar model. Shouldn't happen, definitely shouldn't be policy, but every now and again there is a persistent mong who needs to be given a damn good slapping. [Edited on 08.10.2012 3:50 AM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote][i]Surely[/i] you must know that feeling? Then again, you probably don't. It helps to not have that trait in a Master Forum Ninja anyway.

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  • This thread... ...makes a great point.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote] I honestly think that it is a Knee Jerk Reaction I think threads like that diminish the forum as a whole. I do however try to restrain myself from posting and bumping an already idiot topic.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x Please do not encourage this kind of behavior by suggesting obnoxious responses to any thread.[/quote] No better word, has ever been said.

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  • Op, you're stupid. JK, great read.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote]Advocating critical thinking and logical reasoning is something I feel is a necessity, whether it be on an Internet forum or face to face. Stupid is the opposite of what I'm advocating.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote][url=http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png]Duty calls[/url], however it is a good question. I think that for the most part we are irritated that such threads are allowed to prosper and attempt to end them as. Quite simply, they are an eyesore and negatively impact the community at large insomuch that they will encourage such posting to continue. I honestly don't know, but XKCD put it best. [i]What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong![/i] [Edited on 08.09.2012 11:43 PM PDT]

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  • After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?

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  • I got to page two reading this and I pretty much saw the same debate going on the entire time, so I am sorry if I am being redundant in any way. Every once in a while I will pm a mod as to why I think a thread seems out of line if it has a few pages and no lock and most of the time they will say thank you and lock it because it's just not possible to see all the bull-blam!- at once. Sometimes though, mods will notice that I have pointed out my disagreement with the OP in the thread and they tell me to just not post in the future because it's no better than the original post. As of late I have gotten much better at this and almost never find myself even worrying about the threads in question. I see a thread that looks like it could be a troll/spam/blatant disregard for the rules and I will report if it is and move on without posting in the thread. It works wonders. And if I do disagree with the OP I will talk to him via PM's instead of in the thread because disagreements in threads almost always get heated. I don't feel the need to add that to a thread because it looks bad for everyone involved. So I guess this all culminates to listening to the Ninja suggestions here because it has made a more pleasurable experience for myself on this site.

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  • Did this really just happen and get 7 pages? Everyone has the power to ignore.

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  • If you are going to criticize someone or their thread publically, then you'd want to avoid a scenario which would instigate petty agreements between you and the person you're complaining about. Simply stating something condesending or without reasoning doesn't help with anything at all, they're going to simply assume you are what you call them, and keep on going about what they do the same way they've always done it. The Conclusion: you getting more aggitated because the person wouldn't listen to your tone which you'd have thought would have been a solution. Instead of calling "idiots", "idiots"; try a non-negative approach, try an approach which clearly outlines why you dislike the person - it'd work infinitely more efficiently than labelling someone as simply stupid or moronic, with no clause as to why. If they don't care, then there is no point in labelling or denouncing to the world about your hate for them as it'd simply cause more crap for what it's worth. It's then when it comes time to ignore them, either through your mind, or through the power of an implemented ignore system. [Edited on 08.09.2012 10:09 PM PDT]

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  • Many people consider their opinions to be fact. Whether this is a simple discussion about games, or one more serious around politics or religion, the same is true; battles of opinion often end with both sides thinking the other is either a moron or an -blam!- and neither opinions have been swayed. The difference between debate and argument, while not what this thread is about, should be understood. We can disagree with what others say without insulting them personally. Sadly, many people lack this ability and any mention of something that collides with their perceived truths is taken personally. These aside, it is our responsibility as members of this community to uphold that which we would like to get out of this community. Do we want a place filled with vitriolic speech? No. Do we want a place filled with unhelpful users who simply post to mislead others and start arguments? I do not think so. How do we make this a place that we would like to inhabit? Easy, we do just that. We have the tools to do this, it is simply our voice. We can let people know when what they are doing is completely idiotic, so long as we do so constructively. When we see things that break the rules, we can report them and not respond. We do not need to be rude, we can let the mods lock the thread and inform the user as to why. We do not need to be so controlling, we do not need to tell others when what they are doing is wrong. If it is wrong, we have a system for that. As for idiocy, that is something we can handle (as from what I can see being an idiot is not a reportable offense). I do not like to be a mean person, and I try to live my life by following my obligation to do the right thing. I do not think that calling someone an idiot and humiliating them is the best course of action. However, I have tried the polite approach many times before and it has had mixed success. If there is a problem, then we must find a solution. I do not think that we have found it yet, but perhaps as we further this dialog we can come to something that we all agree with. To add a little bit here, under the "Stuff That Sucks" section of the Code of Conduct, we find the following (paraphrased slightly and omitting a few): - Being a jerk. - Harassing, defaming, or antagonizing others Let us not cross the line into harassment, jerkdom, or other bad stuff. Keep it clean, but do what must be done. [Edited on 08.09.2012 9:35 PM PDT]

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  • When someone attacks the person directly, instead of kindly pointing out mistakes or the inaccuracy of the topic, it seems like the one attacking is putting no effort into finding any purpose behind the idea they are attacking, almost as if they are offended. I do have to agree with ken, to a degree. There are a few people whose personalities are anything but kind. There "style" of disagreement leads to cynical replies. That's just the way they are. Though B.net may be full of jerks, they still have the ability to change their train of thought and to either ignore and move on or kindly state their opinion on the matter. Personally, when I find a thread that I believe lacks any type or intellectual thought or discussion value (or threads purposely posted in an idiotic way), I go back to the forum without replying. If I do feel I am personally attacked or my intelligence is questioned, I will defend myself in a conservative manner. I won't counter any attack he/she proposes, but simply restate my opinion in a way for the other person to better understand my point of view. I will then let them know that it was unnecessary to reply in the manner chosen. If he or she decided that they want to have another say and continue to post in an irritated or offended manner, I will PM them to keep the unneeded drama off the forums. I mean honestly, there is no excuse.

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  • Honestly I think this thread is to far along for me to just jump in but I would like to say a piece. I believe there is fine line between pointing out a wrong and insulting someone. This is why we have mods and forum rules. I think however pointing out their "stupidity" only really bumps a thread. Without any SAGE-ing possible on B.net. A way to talk without bumping a topic. i think its best to really just report and move on. Also I believe that Trolls are sometimes not recognized here and correcting only feeds them. It's always best to report and defer to the mods. if you are so driven to point things out to them handle it away from the Forum in a personal message. [Edited on 08.09.2012 8:42 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior May Foman have mercy on my soul, but I agree. I feel sometimes it's necessary to point out stupidity for the sake of preventing it in the future. Mistakes happen. We can't change the past. But we can change the future. If I posted a thread or made a ridiculous claim of an opinion as fact, I would definitely want somebody to tell me to save me from future embarrassment! If I get out of the bathroom with toilet paper on my shoe, my family had better damn well tell me instead of wanting to be nice to me and let me walk around with a toilet-papered shoe all day! Calling somebody out when something is stupid is not only part of society and life in general, but it's also a favor to them. Ideally they'll get the picture that not only are they embarrassing themselves (and us for having to read through the stuff!), but we're trying to help them by being 'mean.' It's not just justified- it's necessary.[/quote] "Hey, you have toilet paper on your shoe." That's really all that's necessary. It's not necessary to include any name calling, or sarcasm, or other immature douchery. Telling someone that they're wrong can simply be "Hey, you're wrong, and here's why..." and then giving them the reasons you think they're wrong. Being a dick about it only makes you look bad (and, of course... what if it turns out that they're right after all?) and it leads to whatever discussion was going on turning into the online equivalent of monkeys throwing their -blam!- at each other. Finally, do you really think being "mean" to someone who's wrong will make them see the error of their ways? No, more often then not, they'll just get angry, and presto... Internet turd fight.

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  • When you respect, you will have my permission to be accepted by the mods/community and employees. If not, it will be painful for you.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kr1egerdude If I see a thread along the lines as "I want Blue Flames" I simply report it and move on. If nobody replies to that thread then it would fall behind the more successful threads in that forum. Why can't the community grasp this concept?[/quote]Nobody is talking about threads like that.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b][/quote] And that is just the problem. What does that even mean? [Edited on 08.09.2012 7:57 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 The point I'm trying to make is that it's not hard to figure out what a community considers to be stupid, and that continuing to do things said community considers to be stupid should be and should be anticipated to be met with objection by said community. Leaving people alone to do stupid -blam!- doesn't make them do less stupid -blam!-.[/quote]But yet, I and others in this thread have made the argument (very convincingly, IMHO) that "objection" by the community is most effective when it comes in the form of silence. This is the norm on other boards and other forums -- even on the most truly brutal communities such as /b/ -- and it works so marvelously well EVERYWHERE and in every internet bulletin board/discussion forum situation that I am truly shocked that anybody thinks otherwise.[/quote]I have read the whole thread and I don't understand why we can't all conclude on this idea. What makes people feel so obligated to point out that someone is stupid? When I enter a silly thread I see a bunch of people enjoying themselves on the forums and having a good time. If I think the thread is stupid I simply ignore it. Why would I ruin their fun? If I see a thread along the lines as "I want Blue Flames" I simply report it and move on. If nobody replies to that thread then it would fall behind the more successful threads in that forum. Why can't the community grasp this concept?

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  • A question redirect, or a "hey, you mean/want this?", would solve many repeat topics. Of course something like an update or new information would be grounds for a new thread. But the best way to call someone out is to argue with them by agreeing with them, just in a way that they would never notice.

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  • Here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna go finish writing my song, and then I'm gonna record it. I'll put some lyrics about controversial topics and post a link to the video in The Flood. They will have a field day, and this will net me a ton of views. From there, some Hot Shot producer will see my song, and we will together release it as a hit single, gaining me lots of money. Then, I will buy EVERYONE in this thread a plane ticket if needed, individual hotel rooms, and three day passes to PAX. Come time, we will all meet up, and I'll have arranged a group of trees. We will all then proceed to hug said trees. I believe that this is the only way to solve our problem gentlemen. So brush up on your tree hugging skills, we've got a long road ahead of us. [Edited on 08.09.2012 7:22 PM PDT]

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  • If someone is spreading misleading information that they whole-heartily believe, I would simply link them to several sources that would disprove their information. If that didn't work, I would analyze the sources for them and apply common sense to the situation. If that didn't work, I would [b][u]not[/b][/u] call them out on their stupidity. I would simply ask them respectively to push past their stubbornness and think deeply about the situation at hand. Unless the person is a troll, this works with anyone who is willing to accept that they're wrong.

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  • If I see factual misinformation being posted on a topic I'm fine with posting the correct info, but I have never viewed it as my role to expose the ignorant of ignorance. Idiots are idiots, I can't change that and trying to isn't what I like to spend my time doing. ~Hawk

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