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8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
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I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

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  • Truthfully, I don't think he's trying to say that being a jerk is appropriate. Then again, I suppose what is and what is not a jerk is for the person to decide. Simply solution: Ignore those that bother you and don't dwell on such trivial things as other peoples nonsensical behavior. If you can't control yourself, or you believe it so necessary to point out someone's stupidity, [u]can you not simply message them[/u]? Taking the more gentle approach like defnop suggested could, perhaps, have the same result as pointing it out to them publicly. :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it. [/quote]

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  • This is sort of what I was getting at. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cpt Needa It's necessary to point out stupidity because they'll never learn if this place is just a massive hugbox. That said, this seems to be what the mods are going for.[/quote] But there have been a lot of great points made in this thread. Such as, who's to say pointing out ones stupidity will cause the desired reaction of learning from their mistake. One might take said pointing out in an offensive manner, and turn the discussion into a detailed bitter argument. As well, some have suggested ignoring idiocy as opposed to boldly identifying it, and putting it the persons face. This is a great way to make your experience more relaxed and enjoyable here, simply by ignoring what you wish. But sometimes I feel and I'm sure others do as well, the odd instance calls for the action which I've talked about, whether or not it works, sometimes someone's belligerent stupidity needs to be pointed out, and why it is they look stupid. [Edited on 08.10.2012 1:41 PM PDT]

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  • tl;dr I got the main point though and I agree

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  • It's necessary to point out stupidity because they'll never learn if this place is just a massive hugbox. That said, this seems to be what the mods are going for.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it. [/quote]Being a jerk and telling someone why what they said is stupid are not the same things. Saying that an idea is stupid makes people not talk about those ideas anymore, typically (except for a certain few). I've made threads in the past, and I've been told in the past that what I'm saying is stupid and, while sometimes I will disagree with a person, I'm not immature enough to defy clear and plain logic when I recognize it for the purposes of winning an Internet debate. I will reiterate, being a dick to someone and telling them that their idea is stupid are two totally different things. PM incoming.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Suddenly it seems like people think I'm insinuating that in a debate, attacking someone's character is what you should do. That's not what I'm getting at, at all. Just so we are clear...[/quote] I'm guessing you're getting at my post about [i]ad hominem[/i]? I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were insinuating that that's the proper course of action :) But I do feel like that line is pretty easy to cross when you're questioning an OP's intelligence over a stupid post. To quote your original post: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote]I'm not going to address whether or not the harshness is necessary, but rhetorically, this is a pretty solid response. On the other hand, [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote]tends a little bit more towards an attack [i]ad hominem[/i]. You kind of run that risk any time you start insulting the person themselves. My only point in my first post was to highlight that fact, and that it's a fallacy worth avoiding. I also happen to think that when you insult a person on a forum, they generally immediately jump into a defensive stance, whereas if you limit the insults/criticisms to be directed at the content of their post, they have less room to get all righteous and "defend their honor", and MAYBE even see reason :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x Didn't want you to feel lonely with nobody replying to your post ;-)[/quote]d'awwwww

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] defnop552 When you changed your mind in previous arguments, was it because you were being insulted or because you were presented with rational, logical thoughts?[/quote]Arguments. Because getting somebody to believe something else requires them to think differently- and they need to be rationalizing it in their own head. I you were trying to relate that to this thread, however, you might want to try again. We aren't talking about what the 'stupid thread' makers believe. We're talking about what they DO. And peer pressure is a fantastic way to get somebody to not do an act they might otherwise do if it were deemed acceptable by the community.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] defnop552 "[i]You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar[/i]" It's a lot easier to persuade people if you use polite arguments and flattery than if you are aggressive and confrontational. [/quote]You're welcome to go into any Community Forum Batman related thread and give it a whirl. I know I'm moreorless alone in my thoughts. But I do stand by them until I'm convinced otherwise (protip: I have changed my mind several times in forum arguments in the past!). Still, I see no reason to change my mind and, instead, think that most of you are the more misguided. [/quote] Community? take a stop over in the flood. The honey trick doesn't really work on the internet. I stand by burrito's opinion. ( though i try not to be to much of a dick ) While report and move on is the best way to render judgment, and i support the use of the feature, it does nothing to slow down the creation of pointless threads until a mod "handles" it. I especially hate this when the thread is both pointless and contains droves of false information. That's a situation in which I normally get involved. Sometimes i report and walk away. Other times it is just so terrible that I can't help but try and correct it, If not at least for the other members in the thread. I guess when it boils down to it I think there are "Situations" in which peer member involvement in the correction of a bad thread is warranted and situations where it is not. [Edited on 08.10.2012 9:15 AM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior You're welcome to go into any Community Forum Batman related thread and give it a whirl.[/quote]I liked that thread. :-( When you changed your mind in previous arguments, was it because you were being insulted or because you were presented with rational, logical thoughts?

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  • You are part of that small 1% that does that though. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Elitepwnsaur169 I just tend to ignore the stupidity that so often manifests itself on this website, and i tend to keep to myself.[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] defnop552 "[i]You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar[/i]" It's a lot easier to persuade people if you use polite arguments and flattery than if you are aggressive and confrontational. [/quote]You're welcome to go into any Community Forum Batman related thread and give it a whirl. I know I'm moreorless alone in my thoughts. But I do stand by them until I'm convinced otherwise (protip: I have changed my mind several times in forum arguments in the past!). Still, I see no reason to change my mind and, instead, think that most of you are the more misguided.

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  • "[i]You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar[/i]" It's a lot easier to persuade people if you use polite arguments and flattery than if you are aggressive and confrontational.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spawn031 There are a number of things to do; search-bar improvement, make sticky threads more appealing to get a bigger audience on them, but ultimately you're still going to have people that don't read huge threads before they make another thread. That's just the internet. You can't control everyone.[/quote]I like this. This is a proposed solution, albeit not perfect, to the problem that we have realized. The problem may not have been with stupid users, but with our own arrogance (or is the problem still stupid users all the same?). Let us strive to help better others so that we do not become annoyed by someone else's ignorance. We should become the change that we would like to see on Bungie.net. When information about Destiny is revealed, there will most likely be a wave of new members and this will be a great time to see what works and what does not. If what we currently have in place seems awry, then hope for change. After all, with news on Destiny a new site redesign is sure to follow, so now is the time to talk about what we think should be included. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] JPeloquin218 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TheCraftedPixel [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [/quote][/quote]When...the Poster is called out for what they posted, you making yourself look like a jerk.... This I feel would intimate other members from ever posting. This is something I believe Moderators should take seriously .... Users who call people out are the ones that Moderators should be bringing action to and suggest they "play nice" because that is what we do/should do here.[/quote]I agree. This does hearken back to what Spawn has said, though, in that we must report and move on. We need to show that we do not like such action and the moderators will act accordingly. [Edited on 08.10.2012 8:35 AM PDT]

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  • Textbook thin justification delivered. And I would remove the negative connotation you keep putting on it by default. Telling somebody that a thread is bad is not being a 'jerk.'

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  • 0
    Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 "Hey, you have toilet paper on your shoe." That's really all that's necessary. It's not necessary to include any name calling, or sarcasm, or other immature douchery. [/quote]... It was an example regarding the principle of the thing, not the method. [quote]Telling someone that they're wrong can simply be "Hey, you're wrong, and here's why..." and then giving them the reasons you think they're wrong.[/quote]It isn't a matter of being 'wrong.' At all. Whatsoever. [quote]Finally, do you really think being "mean" to someone who's wrong will make them see the error of their ways? No, more often then not, they'll just get angry, and presto... Internet turd fight. [/quote]It has been proven to work. Read some more posts in the thread. If everybody ignored, it would be great. But since not everybody does, this method works best.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote]That's what it all comes down to, and frankly we don't have an answer. People like being heard and spreading their opinions, I don't know what else.

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  • I just tend to ignore the stupidity that so often manifests itself on this website, and i tend to keep to myself.

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  • Without even arguing about whether you need to be cruel or not in your remarks I just don't see why you feel compelled to respond. You have no obligation or duty to point out other people's stupidity, especially in public. If I enter a thread where the OP or others are being stupid, intentionally or not, I tend to just leave the thread and find a different thread that has something worth discussing. Your browser should have a "Back" button. Use it.

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  • I'd rather tell someone that their argument or the thing they're saying is wrong or stupid in a nicer way, hence the rule, "Play Nice".

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote] This. Bold and cruel words are what the majority of the "stupid" seek. I seriously doubt that the majority the "stupid" threads, at least for me, are made by the ignorant.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TheCraftedPixel [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 I wouldn't try and bring up semantics on here. People are always rude to others they don't like and will make sure the OP of the thread and everyone is aware of it. If the mods really banned all the people from the tongue and cheek stupidity people pull. 75% of the septagon would be banned. (Though some people need it). It is easy to say be kind but the fact is some people here are real jerks and will never learn. [/quote] This user is right. [/quote] When people do that very thing of making sure the Poster is called out for what they posted, you making yourself look like a jerk and someone who wants to be the "big man on campus" acting like they've been here forever and know "what's up." This I feel would intimate other members from ever posting. This is something I believe Moderators should take seriously because it keeps newer members at bay from being bale to jump into the community without getting their feet dirty first into the mix of things. Users who call people out are the ones that Moderators should be bringing action to and suggest they "play nice" because that is what we do/should do here.

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  • I agree. This thread sucks.

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  • BINGO! The term "report and move on", literally means - report and move on. I personally have no problem with avoiding posting in threads that I don't find interesting. But the vast majority of users seem to battle this debate in virtually every thread they enter. It's not just bungie.net, it's loads of forum boards. My concern is that people feel like they HAVE to make their presence known somehow, otherwise people think they're inactiv. Why does this matter? I haven't the slightest clue. I do remember when I first started posting, I did have similar thoughts though. Things like "like" and "thanks" features are subtle things that allow a user to link their presence in a thread without actually posting. It's more apparent on bungie.net (since we don't have these features) that it seems users do this more often. To you and me and most people involved in this thread, it seems that we're entitled to correcting something wrong (IE - "stupid posts"), when in fact I think the right thing to do is become more proactive about it. Preventing the "problem" before it happens. There are a number of things to do; search-bar improvement, make sticky threads more appealing to get a bigger audience on them, but ultimately you're still going to have people that don't read huge threads before they make another thread. That's just the internet. You can't control everyone. People are going to post regardless. They key is that there is an inner "ignore feature" within every person. Some just have more control over it. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Duardo After reading the responses in here, I honestly just have one question: Why exactly do you (those who have responded, and the OP) get so riled up over "stupid" threads and posts that you feel you must respond to them?[/quote]

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  • No You're stupid

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TheCraftedPixel [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 It is easy to say be kind but the fact is some people here are real jerks and will never learn. [/quote] This user is right. [/quote]Perspective. I have seen what you describe, and dare I say I may have joined in from time to time. Perhaps that is a dialog we could follow. Would you argue for more moderation to combat this? Personally, I think that most of what I see on the forums now is fine. That is not to say that it has always been this way, we have our ups and downs.

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