Buckle your hats, it's gonna be a bumpy ride.
1. [b]Ulfric is a rascist, lying, no-good-dirty-rotten-pig-stealin'- -blam!-hole.[/b]
Ulfric takes advantage of others for his own, personal gain. This can be exemplified by using the Thu'um to murder innocent people. Trained by the Greybeards themselves in the way of the voice. The Greybeards teach that the Thu'um is more than a weapon; it is a way of life. Violence is beneath those of the voice. Ulffric, however, sees it in a different light. He knows the advantageous power of the Thu'um, and will use it to HIS desire no matter what to accomplish what he needs to be accomplished... even if that means murder.
Did I mention he is rascist? Yeah, he is rascist. When you first walk into Windhelm, go right into the Gray Quarter (Past the Dark Elf being bullied by two nords which I'll get into later). You'll see a man talking to a Dark Elf. For those who didn't know, the Gray Quarter is a poverty stricken slum that Ulfric forces the Dark Elfs to live in. He'll tell you he is trying to help the Dark Elfs because Ulfric won't. He'll give you radiant quests to destroy bandit camps harassing Dark Elf, Argonian and Khajiit cravaans. It is not that he doesn't have the men. He bails out Nord caravans all the time.
He is power hungry. Did I mention he is power hungry? Ulfric murdered the High King (NOT in fair combat, he used the Thu'um for evil against the will of the Greybeards) [u]JUST[/u] to get the attention of the other jarls. That in it's self is pretty selfish.
I'll get back to Ulfric later.
2. [b]The Markarth Incident[/b]
[quote]While the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion fought the Great War, much of the Empire was abandoned by the Imperials. The Reachmen long held that they were the true owners of the Reach and for centuries begrudgingly accepted Nord rule. Seeing the perfect opportunity, they rebelled against the Nords and captured the nearly undefended city of Markarth and all of the Reach. Their control over the hold lasted for two years from 4E 174 to 4E 176 and was administered relatively peacefully, with only a few of the harshest Nord landowners put to death.
Igmund, the son of the deposed Jarl, and the Imperial Empire, made a promise to Ulfric Stormcloak and a group of Nord militia in 4E 176 to allow free worship of Talos in exchange for putting down the rebellion and retaking the Reach. Igmund knew this promise was in direct violation of the White-Gold Concordat, but wagered the Thalmor would not discover it. Ulfric led a Nord militia against the Reachmen and used the Thu'um to shout them from the very walls of Markarth and then drove them from the city. Captured Reachmen were brutally tortured and executed, with very few being spared.
The surviving Reachmen fled to the wilds of the Reach, creating what would become the Forsworn. Their leader, Madanach, was secretly imprisoned in the Cidhna Mine by Thonar Silver-Blood in an attempt to leverage control over the Forsworn. When the Thalmor discovered the presence of Talos worship, they demanded the arrest of the Nord militia. Igmund was forced to arrest Ulfric and his men or risk outright war over religious conflict. The Nord militia were eventually allowed to leave, but Igmund's broken promise left a fissure that would eventually widen into the Stormcloak Rebellion. The Forsworn still remember the cruelty of the Nords who deposed them, and seek vengeance against all Nords as a result. [/quote]
Huh. How 'bout that. Guess nobody is guilty. While this does show the untrustworthiness of ONE imperial, it shows the cruelty of MANY nords. This looks bad on Ulfric. This once again proove he is willing to murder innocent people to get what he wants. He did get betrayed, but for killing that many people I'd wager he deserved it.
3. [b]Ulfric is insane in the membrane. For real.[/b]
Let us step into a time machine and go back... before the Markarth Incident. "Why would he do such a thing?" You may ask? Well, to put it simply, he was brainwashed. Made to believe false information, proving he is an embecile. Let's read.
[quote]Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.[/quote]
So, in short, the Thalmor is USING the stormcloaks to pave way for an invaision. Pretty good plan, really.
4. [b] Ulfric and his 'Minions' cannot see the big picture.[/b]
The Great War had many loses on both sides, both Empire and Thalmor. Due to the Thalmor's equipment and reliance in magic (The Empire wasn't fully prepared for war.) With the Thalmor slightly more dominant, but taking loses, an agreement had to be made. This is the agreement that would protect the citizens of the empire. The White-Gold Concordat was signed, and the war was over... for now.
The Empire is currently under the appresion of the Thalmor, but not for long. Tensions are high.
[quote]In all accounts, and with all things concluded, the result of the Great War is simply summarized: the Aldmeri Dominion is now the dominant force in Tamriel.
Ominously, Thalmor correspondences found in Skyrim have revealed a different name to describe the Great War: "The First War with the Empire." This suggests that not only do the Thalmor intend a second Great War, but have already begun to plan for how it can be executed. [/quote]
This starts with Skyrim. Ulfric is their real puppet, not the Empire. Creating a rebellion to weaken the Empire. Smarty. This leads to my next point.
5. [b]Hammerfell was not a victory.[/b]
The Redguards, seeing the White-Gold Concordat as betrayal, seceded from the Empire. [u]This is exactly what the Thalmor wanted.[/u] The war began for Hammerfell. This war was fought to a standstill. For unknown reasons, the Aldmeri Dominion pulled out. Why? Because they had bigger plans. Skyrim. What many nords fail to see is the big picture. The Thalmor are very powerful. The only chance we have of retaining our last freedoms, is fighting together. The Empire has the most ties, alliances and trade routes, rivaling the Aldmeri Dominion. This reminds me....
6. [b]TRADE TRADE TRADE TRADE TRADE[/b]
Skyrim is very cold, in case you did not know. Obviously, it is not very good for farming. Many of the food throughout Skyrim comes by way of trade. The East Empire Trading Company connects Skyrim with other provinces and nations, making it an invaluable asset to the empire. It is not just food. It is everything. If Skyrim truely breaks off and closes it's boarders, it is endangering everyone. All ties is cut off. I DON'T THINK RASCISM helps either. With absolutely no help from other nations/provinces, it leaves them to take a slim chance... and when dealing with lives, chances are the least thing you want to chance.
7. [b]The Empire and the Stormcloaks [u]BOTH[/u] desire the worship of Talos.[/b]
The Stormcloaks refuse to admit. It is not like the Empire wants to enforce the Talos law. They despise it. They hate the Thalmor just as much, if not more. I'd also like to mention lots of time it isn't even the Empire enforcing it; it's the Thalmor. [u]The Empire is waitng for the right time to strike back against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks cannot see that, and are messing up the plan.[/u] It confuses me when I think about the Stormcloaks. They have heart, I'll give them that. But that is the only thing I'll give them. Stop and Imagine; The Stormcloaks were defeated. The Nords think there is no hope. Than, all of a sudden, the Empire sucker punches the Thalmor right in the jaw. Support would rise [u][i][b]DRAMATICALLY.[/u][/i][/b] Were it so easy.
The next three are on the way, as soon as I have time.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Dv4Hmf_O8]Stay strong my fellow legionnaires.[/url]
For the legion.
FOR THE EMPIRE!
[Edited on 06.23.2012 10:08 AM PDT]
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I went with Stormcloaks.
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Meh, I'll just join the dragons then.
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you wimp.
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Secret option C, side with the elves?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Atomic Tea [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] darkcrusader117 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Atomic Tea Which innocent did he murder? Did I miss that part, or are you making -blam!- up again? He challenged the Emperor to a duel, and the Emperor lost. Been like that since The Old Times. Ulfric has the right of it. I'm on my way to join up with the Stormcloaks![/quote] read up on the markarth incident he did some pretty terrible things in that[/quote] Imperial propaganda. Designed to make people more like you. Also, he wanted free worship of Talos in the Reach.[/quote] Committing genocide to be able to openly worship a deity? Seems reasonable.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] recklessfire What's the matter OP, [i]someone steal your sweetroll?[/i][/quote] If only I could favor replies
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Meh. I chose Stormcloaks as it had a better name then the "Imperials". Both have their pros and cons, so choose over preference.
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I killed everyone.
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[b]8. They're organized[/b]
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I only side with the Stormcloaks if I'm playing as a Nord, Nordic Pride. The Empire is the smart choice though.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Undead Renegade [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Capt Twist [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Undead Renegade Empire = English Stormcloaks = Native Americans (In their own -blam!- land) Stormcloaks win, no contest, they have every right to defend THEIR land... end of story[/quote] But the empire is descended from the nords.[/quote] :O whaaaaaa!?[/quote] that's why they care so much about worshipping Talos, who before he became a god was Tiber Septim, first emperor of a united tamriel [Edited on 06.23.2012 1:22 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Capt Twist [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Undead Renegade Empire = English Stormcloaks = Native Americans (In their own -blam!- land) Stormcloaks win, no contest, they have every right to defend THEIR land... end of story[/quote] But the empire is descended from the nords.[/quote] :O whaaaaaa!?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Undead Renegade Empire = English Stormcloaks = Native Americans (In their own -blam!- land) Stormcloaks win, no contest, they have every right to defend THEIR land... end of story[/quote] But the empire is descended from the nords.
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Empire = English Stormcloaks = Native Americans (In their own -blam!- land) Stormcloaks win, no contest, they have every right to defend THEIR land... end of story
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] darkcrusader117 you sir are a complete idiot[/quote]Wow. And you're an -blam!-. :/ [quote] you say that the slaughter of anyone that could have fought but didn't is justified[/quote]No, not those that just didn't fight. But those that support the enemy. [quote]and that isn't how the legion works you fool elisif had absolutely no authority over legion troops and after imperial withdrawal from the region they would have left too. and even if they didn't they lose the other imperial armies that would have kept the thalmor off of skyrims ass[/quote]Incorrect. And please stop being an ass insulting me. Tullius was the High Lady's general. Under her. When the Stormcloaks win, borders are defended and the new government is established. The Legion has nowhere to go and, since they have already proven to be cowards, submit themselves to the High Lady's authority. This is human nature- the nature of those too cowardly to pave their own way. Thus Skyrim is united with Imperials as well as Stormcloaks when Ulfric wins. It's really quite simple. [quote]the emperor had several of his few remaining armies defending the imperial city which if you've played oblivion you would know is pretty damned easy to defend. many of the soldiers in those armies were nords from skyrim. and what happened was they lost, badly. it took the emperors last remaining armies to simply take the city back in a pyrrhic victory. that was when the empire was at full strength. they aren't anymore and skyrim isn't even the most important province in the empire.[/quote]And then the Emperor gave us the freedom of his people. Which is when he became unworthy to rule. Hence the war. What's your point? [quote]with a stormcloak victory, your looking at an unskilled, untrained, unprepared, and devastated army of of militia that is defending a land that has been ravaged by war from a highly skilled and well equipped professional army that can deploy from equally skilled and equipped navy. there is no possible way the stormcloaks would be able to successfully repel invasion.[/quote]You mean a skilled, trained, prepared, and fully stocked army that is defending a land that has incredibly superior positioning that has been ravaged by war from a well numbered, well equipped army. Hammerfell did it and they emerged victorious. While most of the southern portion of Hammerfell was decimated, their area was much more difficult to defend as well. All in all? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that Skyrim would not be able to hold their own. If you'd like to continue discussing this I will, if you'll keep the insults out of the way. If you refuse, then grow up and we're done. :/
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By the Nine! What is this blasphemy?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sigma617 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] petemech They're both going to fall before the Argonian Empire anyways, so whats the point?[/quote] Because of their performance during the Oblivion Crisis, Argonians are the most badass fighters in Tamriel. Not a single city fell to Oblivion and they waged a war on retribution war on Morrowind simultaneously.[/quote]Exactly. They swarmed the Oblivion gates in Black Marsh until Dagon's lieutenants closed them. In Cyrodiil the Legion had to have a Hero close them all. Thus, Argonians > Imperial Legion.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] darkcrusader117 this [url=http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bear_of_Markarth]book[/url] happens to disagree with you and the jarl of markarth will collaborate that story along with madanoch[/quote]Necessary losses. The issue is when someone says 'oh he killed only innocent people!' No. People supporting murderers and people that ARE actually murderers. [quote]and if ulfric wins then skyrim loses the imperial legions[/quote]Wrong. completely and utterly wrong and I forgot this point in my last post- it's one of my favorites. In the ending where the Stormcloaks win, the High Lady swears fealty to Ulfric and he spares her. The troops that opposed the Stormcloaks are under General Tullius's and, therefore, the High Lady's command. They follow a cult of personality while the Stormcloaks follow an actual cause. When the High Lady declared fealty, that means all her resources go towards supporting her liege-lord. What does this mean? What it means is that when the Stormcloaks win the war, there is a united Skyrim bolstered with Imperial (EX-imperial, as they are no longer under the command of the Empire... and we've already proven that most of them would stay regardless of their own beliefs so people going AWOL is hardly an issue) forces. There are remnants loyal to the Empire still when Ulfric wins, but this is a minority. While if the Empire wins, they decimate Stormcloak troops, kill the Jarl (again, the Empire always kills their enemies. Ulfric just asks them to leave with the sole exception of Tullius who was declared unworthy anyways as he was a coward), and do NOT have a united Skyrim. Since the Stormcloaks are allied because of a CAUSE rather than a person, THEY will continue to let their wounds fester until they strike again at a later time, and they will still NOT support the Empire, as they have already proven they will defy the Empire for their beliefs. The only way Skyrim can stand is if Ulfric wins. [quote]where exactly do think most nord warriors from skyrim were during the great war? they were off fighting... in the imperial legion... against the thalmor. wanna know what happened to them? they lost[/quote]They would have kept fighting. The Emperor gave in. That was when he became unworthy to rule. Hence the point of the war. What's your point? [quote]if it took the combined forces of most of skyrim's nords (who weren't even most of the legionaries) and the rest of the empire to simply retake the imperial city in last ditch assault, do you really think the nords alone will be able to stand against the thalmor after being decimated by a civil war?[/quote]It's much easier to defend a smaller area surrounded by mountains than it is to defend an entire continent. In addition to that? Hammerfell proves you wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. [quote]the thalmor want the war to rage on so both sides weaken themselves out more and make the conquest easier. siding with ulfric only spells the doom for talos worship.[/quote]No. The Thalmor want the war to go on. But if Ulfric wins, Skyrim is free AND the Thalmor are pushed out. The war, whether the Thalmor wanted it originally or not, was necessary. But THEY wanted the war for the sake of it draining resources. If it ends, then it actually HURTS the Thalmor. So if you side with the Stormcloaks, the war ends, Skyrim is free, the people are free, trade returns, there are no more murders of such a way, and Skyrim has a true leader.[/quote] you sir are a complete idiot you say that the slaughter of anyone that could have fought but didn't is justified and that isn't how the legion works you fool elisif had absolutely no authority over legion troops and after imperial withdrawal from the region they would have left too. and even if they didn't they lose the other imperial armies that would have kept the thalmor off of skyrims ass and judging from your response you know nothing about the sacking of the imperial city. the emperor had several of his few remaining armies defending the imperial city which if you've played oblivion you would know is pretty damned easy to defend. many of the soldiers in those armies were nords from skyrim. and what happened was they lost, badly. it took the emperors last remaining armies to simply take the city back in a pyrrhic victory. that was when the empire was at full strength. they aren't anymore and skyrim isn't even the most important province in the empire. with a stormcloak victory, your looking at an unskilled, untrained, unprepared, and devastated army of of militia that is defending a land that has been ravaged by war from a highly skilled and well equipped professional army that can deploy from equally skilled and equipped navy. there is no possible way the stormcloaks would be able to successfully repel invasion.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Chupanebre627 Everyone goes on about how Ulfric is only weakening Skyrim, but if he's strong enough to defeat the Empire, which side is truly the weakest?[/quote] But he just had the Dragon born do everything for him.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Th3 Invader I only sided with the Empire because I like their armor better and I was a Dark Elf and didn't feel like being prejudiced against. Walked into Windhelm and got a satisfactory brawl with the resident racist guy at the bar. Hell yeah. [/quote] My grandfather was Archmagister of House Telvanni, and as Thane of Solitude I married the Telvanni dark elf girl from Winterhold. This is the kind hand of the empire.
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I tried killing Ulfric after realizing what I had done fighting for his side. They better let me do it in future dlc.
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I only sided with the Empire because I like their armor better and I was a Dark Elf and didn't feel like being prejudiced against. Walked into Windhelm and got a satisfactory brawl with the resident racist guy at the bar. Hell yeah.
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Okay, can I ask a question Flood? Why the god damn hell does everyone love the worthless Stormcloaks? The lot of you should be executed.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] THElizzard01 [url=http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv123/Gardnerius/Animated%20gifs%20for%20boards/Spongebob-Popcorn.gif]here we go...[/url][/quote] I. HATE. -blam!-. Photobucket. Why do you people INSIST on using that godawful piece of rancid waste?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] darkcrusader117 this [url=http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bear_of_Markarth]book[/url] happens to disagree with you and the jarl of markarth will collaborate that story along with madanoch[/quote]Necessary losses. The issue is when someone says 'oh he killed only innocent people!' No. People supporting murderers and people that ARE actually murderers. [quote]and if ulfric wins then skyrim loses the imperial legions[/quote]Wrong. completely and utterly wrong and I forgot this point in my last post- it's one of my favorites. In the ending where the Stormcloaks win, the High Lady swears fealty to Ulfric and he spares her. The troops that opposed the Stormcloaks are under General Tullius's and, therefore, the High Lady's command. They follow a cult of personality while the Stormcloaks follow an actual cause. When the High Lady declared fealty, that means all her resources go towards supporting her liege-lord. What does this mean? What it means is that when the Stormcloaks win the war, there is a united Skyrim bolstered with Imperial (EX-imperial, as they are no longer under the command of the Empire... and we've already proven that most of them would stay regardless of their own beliefs so people going AWOL is hardly an issue) forces. There are remnants loyal to the Empire still when Ulfric wins, but this is a minority. While if the Empire wins, they decimate Stormcloak troops, kill the Jarl (again, the Empire always kills their enemies. Ulfric just asks them to leave with the sole exception of Tullius who was declared unworthy anyways as he was a coward), and do NOT have a united Skyrim. Since the Stormcloaks are allied because of a CAUSE rather than a person, THEY will continue to let their wounds fester until they strike again at a later time, and they will still NOT support the Empire, as they have already proven they will defy the Empire for their beliefs. The only way Skyrim can stand is if Ulfric wins. [quote]where exactly do think most nord warriors from skyrim were during the great war? they were off fighting... in the imperial legion... against the thalmor. wanna know what happened to them? they lost[/quote]They would have kept fighting. The Emperor gave in. That was when he became unworthy to rule. Hence the point of the war. What's your point? [quote]if it took the combined forces of most of skyrim's nords (who weren't even most of the legionaries) and the rest of the empire to simply retake the imperial city in last ditch assault, do you really think the nords alone will be able to stand against the thalmor after being decimated by a civil war?[/quote]It's much easier to defend a smaller area surrounded by mountains than it is to defend an entire continent. In addition to that? Hammerfell proves you wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. [quote]the thalmor want the war to rage on so both sides weaken themselves out more and make the conquest easier. siding with ulfric only spells the doom for talos worship.[/quote]No. The Thalmor want the war to go on. But if Ulfric wins, Skyrim is free AND the Thalmor are pushed out. The war, whether the Thalmor wanted it originally or not, was necessary. But THEY wanted the war for the sake of it draining resources. If it ends, then it actually HURTS the Thalmor. So if you side with the Stormcloaks, the war ends, Skyrim is free, the people are free, trade returns, there are no more murders of such a way, and Skyrim has a true leader.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] petemech They're both going to fall before the Argonian Empire anyways, so whats the point?[/quote] Because of their performance during the Oblivion Crisis, Argonians are the most badass fighters in Tamriel. Not a single city fell to Oblivion and they waged a war on retribution war on Morrowind simultaneously.