I came into this thread hoping for mindless bashing. Instead I get PARAGRAPHS about "Precursors" and such. SADFACE

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh By now it probably sounds as if I'm nitpicking, but I do have a point. The Ring that destroyed the old city was fired at a tuning designed to destroy the technology there. The only 100% way we can say for sure what conclusion this fight would come to would be to just call it a tie. Both sides are just too powerful with way to many unknowns. What is the specifics of neural physics? Is the 40K universe a living entity as well? If not, what effect would the weapons of either side have. And more simply, how many galaxies did the Precursors control? Can the mortal 40K universe handle them all? Say what you will, but I hold to a tie.[/quote] The 40k verse is alive. In Battle of the Fang, a 1k Sons sorcerer has to 'lull the universe to sleep' (paraphrasing here) and it is mentioned that the universe is alive. It is also mentioned that the universe actively strives to keep itself and the warp separate. The Necron codex mentions WMDs that harnessed the energies of the living universe so that the Necrons could break the C'Tan.

40k wins because of C'tan and Chaos.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] needler blast halo rings= win[/quote] I lol everytime someone says halo rings = win. There are species/types of entities in Warhammer 40K that can survive the Halo rings' blasts without any physical harm, much as how technically, the Flood can survive the blast of the Halo array without much (if at all any) physical harm. Not to mention the hilarity of the CoD martyrdom effect of the Halo Arrays. [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:59 PM PDT]

halo rings= win

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OdorousLicense3 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh You say that no limits fallacy is saying "nothing from universe X can destroy it, so nothing from universes *whole alphabet* can destroy it." Well, I never said that, did I? If it was a matter of nothing ever [i]proven[/i] capable of destroying it, then I'd agree. But it isn't. The actual canon is that [i]only[/i] neural physics can harm NP technology. Not that nothing has ever proven it can't, just that only one thing [i]can[/i]. If you're implying by your fallacy usage that something else from an entirely different universe could possibly be effective, then I'd like to point out the flaws in [i]that[/i] logic: how do we know? Until the day comes that a Necron WMD is used on a Precursor structure--as xd' said above--then we cannot make such a base assumption that it would or would not have any effect on something from a completely different universe with its own unique set of rules. Which is why I am saying this is a [i]tie,[/i] more specifically a paradoxile tie. Immovable object vs. unstoppable force.[/quote] This could be said for every matchup ever. "We don't know if Master Chief would be killed by a nuke, he was never hit by one!"[/quote]Do you want Halo to lose that badly that you're trolling?[/quote] Believe me I never [i]want[/i] Halo to lose. I'm just going against everybody who immediately flocks behind Halo to counterbalance the fanboyism.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh This is my problem with 'Pilers. They extend the same rules for mortals and real world science as they do to gods. The science the Precursors use is so advanced it can hardly be described as science anymore, but space magic.[/quote] Irrelevant. They might be advanced, and their stuff might be invulnerable to our weapons or the Covenant's weapons, but this doesn't make their stuff indestructible by any means. This is kind of like saying if we sent a tank back to the Stone Age it would be invincible because they have...well, stones, and the tank is made of steel. This doesn't make the tank indestructible. It just means they don't have enough firepower. [quote]We know Chief would get vaporized by a nuke, first off, because he has always run his ass off when there was one nearby, but more importantly because we know that he has limits. The Precursors, the only limits we know they have involve their own science and technology. To say that they in fact have limits relevant to the tech in 40K (as per your no limits call) is to rewrite the established canon, or add to it where it does not exist because no one honestly knows. One space magic weapon vs. an entirely unrelated and canonically invincible space magic defense. Who are you to say who wins?[/quote] Well, since we know so little about Precursor weaponry the same logic dictates we don't know what exactly it's fully capable of either. Maybe it has some sort of crippling weakness, which is how the Forerunners killed them. Or maybe they weren't as powerful as they were built up to be and were killed off much like how the Flood killed the Forerunners.

I would say a tie as well, but I would hold Warhammer 40K greater than Halo when discounting C'tan/Necrons and Precursors.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] rst7503 It says that Halo arrays can severely destroy Precursor technology as evidenced by the first test firing of the array, and we know that the Halo Array works by targeting specific neural structures in sentients through some sort of EM radiation (as seen when in Halo:CE, MC was able to damage neural pulse amplifiers through Cortana using EM disruptions from Mjolnir). If this is true, then the Necrons, who are known to be able to manipulate the minds of sentients through radiological devices, are able to combat Precursor technology[/quote] By now it probably sounds as if I'm nitpicking, but I do have a point. The Ring that destroyed the old city was fired at a tuning designed to destroy the technology there. The only 100% way we can say for sure what conclusion this fight would come to would be to just call it a tie. Both sides are just too powerful with way to many unknowns. What is the specifics of neural physics? Is the 40K universe a living entity as well? If not, what effect would the weapons of either side have. And more simply, how many galaxies did the Precursors control? Can the mortal 40K universe handle them all? Say what you will, but I hold to a tie.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh You say that no limits fallacy is saying "nothing from universe X can destroy it, so nothing from universes *whole alphabet* can destroy it." Well, I never said that, did I? If it was a matter of nothing ever [i]proven[/i] capable of destroying it, then I'd agree. But it isn't. The actual canon is that [i]only[/i] neural physics can harm NP technology. Not that nothing has ever proven it can't, just that only one thing [i]can[/i]. If you're implying by your fallacy usage that something else from an entirely different universe could possibly be effective, then I'd like to point out the flaws in [i]that[/i] logic: how do we know? Until the day comes that a Necron WMD is used on a Precursor structure--as xd' said above--then we cannot make such a base assumption that it would or would not have any effect on something from a completely different universe with its own unique set of rules. Which is why I am saying this is a [i]tie,[/i] more specifically a paradoxile tie. Immovable object vs. unstoppable force.[/quote] This could be said for every matchup ever. "We don't know if Master Chief would be killed by a nuke, he was never hit by one!"[/quote]Do you want Halo to lose that badly that you're trolling?

Warhammer 40K vs. Halo is essentially actual magic + techno-sorcery vs. techno-sorcery. The only question is will Precursor techno-sorcery protect them from Warhammer 40K's real magic and make the battle a tie between potentially limitless amounts of techno-sorcery.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh You say that no limits fallacy is saying "nothing from universe X can destroy it, so nothing from universes *whole alphabet* can destroy it." Well, I never said that, did I? If it was a matter of nothing ever [i]proven[/i] capable of destroying it, then I'd agree. But it isn't. The actual canon is that [i]only[/i] neural physics can harm NP technology. Not that nothing has ever proven it can't, just that only one thing [i]can[/i]. If you're implying by your fallacy usage that something else from an entirely different universe could possibly be effective, then I'd like to point out the flaws in [i]that[/i] logic: how do we know? Until the day comes that a Necron WMD is used on a Precursor structure--as xd' said above--then we cannot make such a base assumption that it would or would not have any effect on something from a completely different universe with its own unique set of rules. Which is why I am saying this is a [i]tie,[/i] more specifically a paradoxile tie. Immovable object vs. unstoppable force.[/quote] This could be said for every matchup ever. "We don't know if Master Chief would be killed by a nuke, he was never hit by one!"[/quote] This is my problem with 'Pilers. They extend the same rules for mortals and real world science as they do to gods. The science the Precursors use is so advanced it can hardly be described as science anymore, but space magic. We know Chief would get vaporized by a nuke, first off, because he has always run his ass off when there was one nearby, but more importantly because we know that he has limits. The Precursors, the only limits we know they have involve their own science and technology. To say that they in fact have limits relevant to the tech in 40K (as per your no limits call) is to rewrite the established canon, or add to it where it does not exist because no one honestly knows. One space magic weapon vs. an entirely unrelated and canonically invincible space magic defense. Who are you to say who wins? [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:46 PM PDT]

Old ones come in and wipe the floor with Precursors.

It says that Halo arrays can severely destroy Precursor technology as evidenced by the first test firing of the array, and we know that the Halo Array works by targeting specific neural structures in sentients through some sort of EM radiation (as seen when in Halo:CE, MC was able to damage neural pulse amplifiers through Cortana using EM disruptions from Mjolnir). If this is true, then the Necrons, who are known to be able to manipulate the minds of sentients through radiological devices, are able to combat Precursor technology [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:44 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] rst7503 What, exactly, is Halo's definition of Neural Physics. If it's anything like theoretical neurophysics, then the Necrons are way above that level.[/quote] The mind, life, and matter are inextricably linked. The details ellude us at the moment, but currently, from what the books suggest and my understanding, it is not too dissimilar from CTMU, Langan's Cognitive Theoretical Model of the Universe. The idea that the universe, the mind and life all coexist in one unified whole. The mind of God, as I said above.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh You say that no limits fallacy is saying "nothing from universe X can destroy it, so nothing from universes *whole alphabet* can destroy it." Well, I never said that, did I? If it was a matter of nothing ever [i]proven[/i] capable of destroying it, then I'd agree. But it isn't. The actual canon is that [i]only[/i] neural physics can harm NP technology. Not that nothing has ever proven it can't, just that only one thing [i]can[/i]. If you're implying by your fallacy usage that something else from an entirely different universe could possibly be effective, then I'd like to point out the flaws in [i]that[/i] logic: how do we know? Until the day comes that a Necron WMD is used on a Precursor structure--as xd' said above--then we cannot make such a base assumption that it would or would not have any effect on something from a completely different universe with its own unique set of rules. Which is why I am saying this is a [i]tie,[/i] more specifically a paradoxile tie. Immovable object vs. unstoppable force.[/quote] This could be said for every matchup ever. "We don't know if Master Chief would be killed by a nuke, he was never hit by one!"

If a Space Marine Chapter as a whole attacks a forerunner or precursor planet then it shall be The Emperor's victory. Here they were able to advance easily inside an Eldar world. [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:37 PM PDT]

What, exactly, is Halo's definition of Neural Physics. If it's anything like theoretical neurophysics, then the Necrons are way above that level.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh Precursor technology is invincible,[/quote] No-limits fallacy. [quote]Chaos cannot be destroyed. The only God the Precursors could reasonably destroy would be Nurgle, as the idea of decay does not apply to Precursor structures.[/quote] ...What? How does it 'not apply'?[/quote] To answer your second question, Nurgle has been called the Lord of All because all things invariably decay. Precursor technology, however, does not. It is eternal, indestructable, invincible. To answer your first statement, it is not a fallacy. It is a canonical fact. No weapon, barring the Precursors own unique and incomprehensible science, can damage in any form a Precursor structure. I could point you to a guide on 343i's website that proves this--their official definition for Precursors confirms that they "built indestructable technology" but their site doesn't agree with my computer so if you really need to know, it'd be under "books" and Cryptum most likely. How can a fact be a fallacy? Unless this really [i]is[/i] Falsepile...[/quote] Again, no-limits fallacy. Just because in the Haloverse the only thing that can harm Precursor stuff is Precursor weaponry doesn't mean nothing [i]at all[/i] can harm Precursor stuff. Factpile is infinitely better at versus matches than B.net.[/quote] You say that no limits fallacy is saying "nothing from universe X can destroy it, so nothing from universes *whole alphabet* can destroy it." Well, I never said that, did I? If it was a matter of nothing ever [i]proven[/i] capable of destroying it, then I'd agree. But it isn't. The actual canon is that [i]only[/i] neural physics can harm NP technology. Not that nothing has ever proven it can't, just that only one thing [i]can[/i]. If you're implying by your fallacy usage that something else from an entirely different universe could possibly be effective, then I'd like to point out the flaws in [i]that[/i] logic: how do we know? Until the day comes that a Necron WMD is used on a Precursor structure--as xd' said above--then we cannot make such a base assumption that it would or would not have any effect on something from a completely different universe with its own unique set of rules. Which is why I am saying this is a [i]tie,[/i] more specifically a paradoxile tie. Immovable object vs. unstoppable force. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] rst7503 The God Emperor is a sentient individual. He's an amalgamation of spirits being born reincarnated into one compressed entity, which still has a concept of selfness. Also, the Timeless One, if we believe what he says to be true, seems to be self aware when he alleges that he is the last of the Precurors.[/quote] Perhaps I worded that wrong, apologies. I mean to say that, yes, they are self aware, but their "awareness" goes far and above beyond just you me and them, but onto an unrecognizable cognitive plane. More like the mind of God. This term is Transsentient, hyper evolved beings. [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:36 PM PDT]

The God Emperor is a sentient individual. He's an amalgamation of spirits being born reincarnated into one compressed entity, which still has a concept of selfness. Also, the Timeless One, if we believe what he says to be true, seems to be self aware when he alleges that he is the last of the Precurors.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] rst7503 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Batchnator95 [/quote]Then I present you with Tzeentch, have fun.[/quote] Which is why it is a tie. The Precursors likely have the cognitive prowess to navigate his maze, but once it comes down to a fight, both are equally invincible in their own way. Divine technology vs. Divine magic.[/quote] Unlikely, the nature of Tzeentch is such that having cognitive prowess is actually a liability. As great as someone's cognitive possibilities are, it is still constrained by the rules of real-world logic (with the exception of imaginations). Tzeentch converts sentients' imaginations into his own playthings and his/her/its nature is inimical to logic. I'm not sure, but I think blind faith is the best tool against Tzeentch. It's like the SM chaplain's voice clip in Dawn of War 1: "Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"[/quote] The Precursors are not sentient, remember. They're beyond self awareness and have a significantly higher inate understanding and realtionship with the universe. In terms of mental ability, they're more God Emperor than William Sidis. Exactly how good that analogy is, I don't know. I just assumed; the Lexicanum (wiki) said that only those possessed of the most incredible of minds can figure out his maze. With the Precursors no longer even being sentient, but something more, I imagine it could be possible.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 I know nothing of Warhammer 40k, but would the Halo rings work?[/quote] Why would they fire the Rings?[/quote]It's like a "if I can't win then I'm bringing you down with me" kinda thing.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh Precursor technology is invincible,[/quote] No-limits fallacy. [quote]Chaos cannot be destroyed. The only God the Precursors could reasonably destroy would be Nurgle, as the idea of decay does not apply to Precursor structures.[/quote] ...What? How does it 'not apply'?[/quote] To answer your second question, Nurgle has been called the Lord of All because all things invariably decay. Precursor technology, however, does not. It is eternal, indestructable, invincible. To answer your first statement, it is not a fallacy. It is a canonical fact. No weapon, barring the Precursors own unique and incomprehensible science, can damage in any form a Precursor structure. I could point you to a guide on 343i's website that proves this--their official definition for Precursors confirms that they "built indestructable technology" but their site doesn't agree with my computer so if you really need to know, it'd be under "books" and Cryptum most likely. How can a fact be a fallacy? Unless this really [i]is[/i] Falsepile...[/quote] Again, no-limits fallacy. Just because in the Haloverse the only thing that can harm Precursor stuff is Precursor weaponry doesn't mean nothing [i]at all[/i] can harm Precursor stuff. Factpile is infinitely better at versus matches than B.net. [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:25 PM PDT]

Also, Nurgle is not only the god of decay, but he is also the god of stagnation and persistance. Anything that is eternal, as the Precursor technology is, is stagnant, as it never changes. Thus, Nurgle rules over it. This come from Tzeentch being the God of being progressive change, so the opposites of progressive change is either regressive change (decay) or no change (stagnation/eternality). It's also visible in the way Nurgle's worshippers are inflicted with the most virulent, deadliest diseases, but they are able to survive and persist in permanent states of decay. It seems like a paradox, but that's the lore of Nurgle. [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:25 PM PDT]

Precursors. /thread

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Batchnator95 [/quote]Then I present you with Tzeentch, have fun.[/quote] Which is why it is a tie. The Precursors likely have the cognitive prowess to navigate his maze, but once it comes down to a fight, both are equally invincible in their own way. Divine technology vs. Divine magic.[/quote] Unlikely, the nature of Tzeentch is such that having cognitive prowess is actually a liability. As great as someone's cognitive possibilities are, it is still constrained by the rules of real-world logic (with the exception of imaginations). Tzeentch converts sentients' imaginations into his own playthings and his/her/its nature is inimical to logic. I'm not sure, but I think blind faith is the best tool against Tzeentch. It's like the SM chaplain's voice clip in Dawn of War 1: "Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"