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9/19/2006 10:36:41 PM
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Why button-glitching isn't cheating
There have been many debates about button glitching and whether or not it's cheating. I would have to say no, it's not. Here's why.
Cheating is defined as having an unfair advantage. Modding is a good example of this. One person in the game has super-human powers, with automatic BR's and the ability to fly while the rest are normal. Standbying is cheating because one player can manipulate the lag to his advantage. Bridging is cheating because it gives host to the unworthy. And button glitching is cheating....why?
In all of the examples listed above, only a select few people have the advantage. In button glitching, how ever, any one can do them at any given time.
Many people go off at this point and say "Any one can standby" or "Any one can mod". While this is true, it is still cheating. From what I can tell, only one person can bridge theirself host at a time, and only one person can have their mods active at a time. Therefore, it's an unfair advantage. But with button-glitching, anyone in the game can do them. It's not reserved to just one person per game. Your only limit is of the technical knowledge of the game engine.
With luck, this won't turn into a flame war. Please read this entire post before replying, please.
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[b]The Short Version:[/b] Bungie controls everything. You have no rights. Play nice. [b]The Long Version:[/b] I am not suggesting you blindly follow me. I'm suggesting you follow the rules you agreed to when you got a gamertag. Outside of Xbox Live, I don't care what you define as cheating. For example, in an MLG tournament, they don't consider BXR to be cheating. That's fine with me. I only care about Xbox Live. Specifically, you agreed to a number of rules by getting a gamertag. The Xbox Live ToU has a relevant passage: [i]3. HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY USE THE SERVICE We provide the Service for your personal use. You may not use the Service for commercial purposes or in a way that is against the law. You also may not use it in a way that harms us or our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners and/or suppliers (collectively, the "Microsoft Parties"), or any customer of a Microsoft Party. Some examples of harmful activity that we do not permit include: (i) trying to gain access to any account, computers, hardware or networks related to this Service without authorization; (ii) disrupting accounts, computers, hardware or networks related to the Service; (iii) obtaining or trying to obtain any data through any means from the Service, except if we intend to provide or make it available to you; (iv) using the Service or related hardware to obtain any data to design, develop or update unauthorized software that you use or provide to others to access or use in connection with the Service; (v) charging others to use the Service either directly or indirectly; [b](vi) using or distributing unauthorized cheats, macros or scripts; (vii) exploiting any bug, or making unauthorized modifications to any software or data, in the Service or particular game to gain unfair advantage in a game.[/b][/i] Items vi and vii are of particular interest. In both cases, the prohibit "unauthorized" cheats or exploiting of bugs to cheat. This defeats another point brought up by others, in that they say "sure, it is a bug, but who defines if the advantage is fair or not?" As any logical analysis will tell you, the same people who decide what is authorized and what is not will tell you about fair and unfair. In the case of Xbox Live, that entity is us. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Why is using a bug cheating? Everyone has an equal opportunity to use them. Don't just blindly accept what Bungie tells you. [/quote]
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I oppose everything in in your signature. And yes glitching is cheating. If you're out of the map with the oddball or flag or bomb or your entire team and you have snipers on all of the superjumps do you think that the game is fair? And if you're meleeing faster than someone else do you think its fair? Plus if Tom says so then believe him.
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I'm terrible at BXR and BXB and all that mess, but If Bungie isn't bothered enough to go in there and actually fix it, I am not going to leave feedback on people that do it. Get better testers for Halo 3. I'd rather someone BXR me than sweep snipe me or sword me. At least the BXR took a little bit of skill. [Edited on 9/19/2006]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bryanneo as always, to the rescue Mr. Overlord[/quote] if by 'to the rescue' you mean that they can point out that it is their sandbox and that they can enforce any rules that they would like, then you are right. but, the terms of use do not rule out all glitches, only the ones that provide an unfair advantage. bungie has the power to go above and beyond the terms of use and deem all glitches against the rules, and the bungie employees in the forums tell us that they are doing just that. i am still waiting for a bungie employee to present an argument that does not beg the question by presupposing that glitch exploits provide an unfair advantage.
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lolz im not buyin a 360 for 1 game anyway
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl OC Girl lx Do you think it'll be possible to do those button-glitches in H3?[/quote] I doubt it. The glitches are a result of the game engine itself. Since there is a new engine for Halo 3, there will not be the same glitches. There will likely be new ones. [/quote] Yeah that's sort of what I was thinking... but I haven't kept up with the H3 news at all so I really have no idea what H3 is going to be like.
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as always, to the rescue Mr. Overlord
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Your argument is flawed in three fundamental ways. 1. Not everyone can button-glitch - users with PAL displays cannot perform all the same glitches the NTSC version can. 2. The terms of use of Xbox Live clearly state that exploitation of any bug (meaning you deliberately try and perform the bug) is cheating. 3. Bungie's code of conduct (that applies to our games as well) specifically mentions that we control everything. As we have interpreted the glitches involving weapon interruption to be cheating, it is. Be careful, you're walking a very thin line here. Advocating cheating on bungie.net is a bannable offense. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov There have been many debates about button glitching and whether or not it's cheating. I would have to say no, it's not. Here's why. Cheating is defined as having an unfair advantage. Modding is a good example of this. One person in the game has super-human powers, with automatic BR's and the ability to fly while the rest are normal. Standbying is cheating because one player can manipulate the lag to his advantage. Bridging is cheating because it gives host to the unworthy. And button glitching is cheating....why? In all of the examples listed above, only a select few people have the advantage. In button glitching, how ever, any one can do them at any given time. Many people go off at this point and say "Any one can standby" or "Any one can mod". While this is true, it is still cheating. From what I can tell, only one person can bridge theirself host at a time, and only one person can have their mods active at a time. Therefore, it's an unfair advantage. But with button-glitching, anyone in the game can do them. It's not reserved to just one person per game. Your only limit is of the technical knowledge of the game engine. With luck, this won't turn into a flame war. Please read this entire post before replying, please. [/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] atomic weggie [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov As many have pointed out, Bungie considers these glitches cheating. However, they have never stated why. [/quote] Then you aren't paying attention. Achronos has stated many times that button glitching is taking advantage of "unintended" bug within the animation process. Every ninja has said pretty much the same thing. You are [b]intentionally[/b] using a glitch that was not [b]intended[/b] to be in the game. Therefore defined as cheating. Now if you can't understand all of our explanations, by all means keep cheating. We will be happy to laugh at you when you come back here and ask why you were banned.[/quote] Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Why is using a bug cheating? Everyone has an equal opportunity to use them. Don't just blindly accept what Bungie tells you. [/quote] When you go into matchmaking, you play by Bugnie's rules. If they say it is cheating, it is. That is all that matters. They are not required to give you an explanation. [Edited on 9/19/2006]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl OC Girl lx Do you think it'll be possible to do those button-glitches in H3?[/quote] I doubt it. The glitches are a result of the game engine itself. Since there is a new engine for Halo 3, there will not be the same glitches. There will likely be new ones.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] roman arrow12 ...Achronos or NoF or Shishka. I am sure that they would be happy do give you a long and detailed explanation on why it is cheating in a most professional and polite way. Ok, maybe not polite.[/quote] these guys have been polite and they have presented arguments in the threads and in pms describing their reasons for calling button combos cheating. their arguments are unsound since they presuppose that glitch exploits are cheating. we will all agree that glitch exploits like BXB and BXR provide players with an advantage, but what remains to be seen is whether this advantage is fair or unfair. they just presuppose that the advantage is unfair, but this is clearly circular. we can imagine a button glitch that would make your own head 4 times as large as normal, leaving you much more vulnerable to attack from enemies. to do this in mm would be an instance of a glitch exploit, so they may deem it against the rules, but is it cheating? no. it is not the case that 'glitch exploits' and 'cheating' are the same, but the folks at bungie wrongly suppose that they are, and their argument that button combos are cheating hinges upon this conflation.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] atomic weggie [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov As many have pointed out, Bungie considers these glitches cheating. However, they have never stated why. [/quote] Then you aren't paying attention. Achronos has stated many times that button glitching is taking advantage of "unintended" bug within the animation process. Every ninja has said pretty much the same thing. You are [b]intentionally[/b] using a glitch that was not [b]intended[/b] to be in the game. Therefore defined as cheating. Now if you can't understand all of our explanations, by all means keep cheating. We will be happy to laugh at you when you come back here and ask why you were banned.[/quote] Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Why is using a bug cheating? Everyone has an equal opportunity to use them. Don't just blindly accept what Bungie tells you.
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Do you think it'll be possible to do those button-glitches in H3?
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as everyone else has stated, button glitches are classed cheating regardless of whether they are or not because its stated in the TOS that you can't. Personally, i believe RRX and possibly BXR should be allowed in matchmaking or purposely put in halo 3. Doubleshotting makes BR battles more dynamic and satisfying when u kill some1. it does have its downside to counteract its effectiveness, u momentarily loss aim when pressing the buttons and cant shoot after its done(same as after a plasma charge shot). But despite my opinion, bungie's stance must be respected for the time being
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl OC Girl lx Any kind of glitching, exploiting bugs, standbying, modding, manipulating anything... it's all cheating. I have to agree with the thread starter, it really [i]shouldn't[/i] be considered cheating. [/quote] unfortunately, what the bungie moderators and employees state in a few posts in a few threads in a few forums read by a tiny minority of xbox live players is not the same as what the bungie cheating faq and the microsoft terms of use state. neither of the official sources on mm behavior rule out ALL instances of glitches, only the ones that provide an unfair advantage. so far, none of the bungie employees have provided a sound argument proving how the advnatage obtained by using button combos is unfair, they just presuppose that 'glitching' equals 'cheating.' since bungie calls all of the shots, they can define anything that they would like as being cheating and enforce any rules that they would like. but, if they are going to provide arguments supporting their stance in the forums, then i am still eager to read an argument that does not beg the question. in the thread from my signature ninja on fire has explained why BXR and BXB are cheating and different than the pp-br combo, but his argument entails that combos like BYB and BYR are just as fair as pp-br combo. again, they can deem any act to be against the rules and if using that illegal act in mm provides an advantage, then it will count as cheating. but, so far NOBODY from bungie has managed to provide a sound argument proving why they think button combos provide an unfair advantage.
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I understand where you are coming from, OC Girl. But, in the Terms of Service, you agree not to intentionally manipulate a bug in the game. By button glitching, you are intentionally manipulating a bug, and, if a player you are with thinks it is cheating, then they have the right to leave feedback. Then again, I remember on of the mods saying that if the person thinks that anything you do is cheating, then they have the right to leave feedback. EDIT- I don't really care about BxR or other button combos, as i do them myself. I am just trying to explain why Bungie considers it cheating. [Edited on 9/19/2006]
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It's like the Rocket-Sword glitch. Some people can do it while others can't, same with BXR. I remember one time I was playing with a friend, he never played XBL, thus never heard of BXR or BXB, and thought about seeing if BXR is or isn't an unfair advantage if the opponent does not know how to do it. Turns out, it is. Most of the time when we were face-to-face, all I did was BXR and bam, easy kill. I won that match at least 10 points ahead, it was on Lockout. Then I taught him how to do BXR, we went on Campaign and let him practiced. Then same Slayer game, the score was closer then before, but he still had some troubles doing it. Now he BXR's pretty good, but since he dosen't like the BXR and other glitches too much, we ended up playing Halo 1.
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Well it goes like this: 1: it is cheating 2: I don't think it should be considered cheating 3: I do it anyway because its fun 4: You people here on b.net can whine about it all day, but it won't do a thing 5: If you think it's cheating, leave feedback and move on 6: And most important: STOP MAKING STUPID THREADS ABOUT IT!!! MANY PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE SICK OF IT!!!
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov As many have pointed out, Bungie considers these glitches cheating. However, they have never stated why. [/quote] Then you aren't paying attention. Achronos has stated many times that button glitching is taking advantage of "unintended" bug within the animation process. Every ninja has said pretty much the same thing. You are [b]intentionally[/b] using a glitch that was not [b]intended[/b] to be in the game. Therefore defined as cheating. Now if you can't understand all of our explanations, by all means keep cheating. We will be happy to laugh at you when you come back here and ask why you were banned.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl OC Girl lx I'm sure someone else has said this already, but just in case: It is cheating. Any kind of glitching, exploiting bugs, standbying, modding, manipulating anything... it's all cheating. I have to agree with the thread starter, it really [i]shouldn't[/i] be considered cheating. But that's not the point. The point is that it IS cheating. However, it's very unlikely that you'd get banned for button-glitching alone.[/quote] As many have pointed out, Bungie considers these glitches cheating. However, they have never stated why. [/quote] Actually they have, but their reasoning was very weak. They say it's cheating because it's exploiting a bug that was not intended to be in the game. They say it gives you an unfair advantage over your opponents. I couldn't disagree more. Everyone has the same, equal opportunity to learn how to do it. It's a few buttons you press on your controller, and they call that cheating. Who cares if it was supposed to be in the game or not? It's there, and people should use it. [Edited on 9/19/2006]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl OC Girl lx I'm sure someone else has said this already, but just in case: It is cheating. Any kind of glitching, exploiting bugs, standbying, modding, manipulating anything... it's all cheating. I have to agree with the thread starter, it really [i]shouldn't[/i] be considered cheating. But that's not the point. The point is that it IS cheating. However, it's very unlikely that you'd get banned for button-glitching alone.[/quote] As many have pointed out, Bungie considers these glitches cheating. However, they have never stated why. [/quote] Just PM Achronos or NoF or Shishka. I am sure that they would be happy do give you a long and detailed explanation on why it is cheating in a most professional and polite way. Ok, maybe not polite. [Edited on 9/19/2006]
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It is defin-ed cheating via Bungie.net but it doesn't mean people are restricted from doing it like stand-by.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl OC Girl lx I'm sure someone else has said this already, but just in case: It is cheating. Any kind of glitching, exploiting bugs, standbying, modding, manipulating anything... it's all cheating. I have to agree with the thread starter, it really [i]shouldn't[/i] be considered cheating. But that's not the point. The point is that it IS cheating. However, it's very unlikely that you'd get banned for button-glitching alone.[/quote] As many have pointed out, Bungie considers these glitches cheating. However, they have never stated why.
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I'm sure someone else has said this already, but just in case: It is cheating. Any kind of glitching, exploiting bugs, standbying, modding, manipulating anything... it's all cheating. I have to agree with the thread starter, it really [i]shouldn't[/i] be considered cheating. But that's not the point. The point is that it IS cheating. However, it's very unlikely that you'd get banned for button-glitching alone.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Orzhov Just because it isn't meant to happen doesn't mean it's cheating. Anyone in a given game can perform the glitch. Everyone is on even ground. And I've never seen an argument on why bugs are cheating. [/quote] Here is the bridge, and I will drive you across it. You are confusing YOUR opinion, which is valid and you are entitled to it with the opinions of the people who make the decision on whether button glitching is cheating. Every single ninja and the B.net overlord have all come out and said BXB, BXR, and any other button glitch IS cheating. Therefore we can leave feedback on you. Now whether that feedback does any good is another debate entirely.
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Also it is against XBL ToS to swear be abusive etc etc and all you can do is leave feedback.....cos its basically unenforcable
