[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sesquipadelian 1) "foolish comparison"? is it convenient for you to claim that a rival comparison is inappropriate and offer no justification? we could all go about saying that people with whom we disagree present foolish points, but if we do not explain how a person is wrong then we are just yammering about hollow opinions. if you doubt that there are similarities between BXB and the pp-br combo, and more importantly, between the pp-br combo and BYB and BYR, then explain how my reasoning (presented in the other thread) is flawed. [/quote] Pressing the same buttons does not equal the same actions, and just because the actions are similar (with Y instead of X) does not make the actions equal. In one case you are interrupting the melee and reload animations. There is not supposed to be a way to interrupt these animations, doing so is illogical unless their effect is interrupted or cancelled (like stopping the damage on the melee). However, swapping a weapon is not cancelling anything. Your weapon can continue to overheat in your pocket, for example. You can melee with one weapon and then switch to melee/shoot with another. There is no interruption of animation here. Switching weapons and reloading are not the same, the animations for each are not the same, and the rules for how they should work in the game are thus different. I don't see how that is complicated, nor I do see how you can draw a connection between them other than that you have to initiate them by pressing a button. [quote]i have shown that the logical structure between the 3 sets of actions is the same in each, so you may just declare that the comparison is foolish, but if you are going to do no more than rattle off unsubstantiated claims, then you may end up the one looking foolish.[/quote] I doubt that. Your logical structure makes assumptions that are not true, calling into question the entire process. [quote]2) and 3) FINALLY! you have only just now given a reason to explain why such button combos are unfair. THANK YOU! if it is the case that button combos can only be performed on certain kinds of devices, and a significant percentage of mm players do not have access to such devices, then you have finally given us a reason to support your claim that exploiting button glitches is unfair.[/quote] Um... we have said this - on multiple occassions. Ninja 0n Fire said it, I've said it (in this thread and elsewhere), Shishka said it. [quote]my gosh, if you had only stated this much earlier you would have been able to avoid telling us how you are the ruler of your sandbox a few times. but, i have a question: can people with pal sets use the pp-br combo? when the pp overheats, can they avoid the animation sequence by swapping to another weapon instantly, and then use thie secondary weapon more quickly than they could have had they not interupted the weapon animation sequence? if the answer is yes, then you are back to your familiar question begging stance of just declaring that you find it cheating.[/quote] We've already covered this - the PP overheating animation sequence is meant to prevent the PP itself from firing again for a set period of time. You can't skip it. You are welcome to use another weapon. Y != X. Apples != oranges. [quote]4) thank you for presenting your circular argument again. we all know that you define exploiting a glitch as cheating, but for those of us who do not just presuppose our way out of debates, and for those of us who like to have properly justified beliefs, such fallacious arguments are of little use. they are no better justified than you declaring "they are cheating cuz' i said so!"[/quote] In every sporting event, every competition, there are rules. They are part of the environment. Furthermore, it isn't a circular argument to say that the reason a specific action is cheating is because a judge of the competition has ruled the action as cheating based on his interpretation of a general rule. They do the same in other sports. For example, in baseball, you CANNOT argue with an umpire on a fair/foul, ball/strike, or safe/out call. It doesn't matter what the instant replay says, his word is law on those. The umpire determines, based on his observation and interpretation, whether a specific incident meets the critera set forth by the general rules. Saying it is circular just because the rules that he is using to interpret the specific action are also what give him the power to make the interpretation complete ignores the reality of environment you are playing in. If you want to call it circular, then fine, do so, but it DOES NOT change the validity of the judge's call. Trying to weasel your way out of having to answer to that point by dismissing it as circular demonstrates your lack of understanding of the rules, and how to debate properly. [quote]you guys have made attempts to justify your stance, and i and others have pointed out flaws in your arguments. you are right, you do not need to explain yourself to us, but since you have done so, we have taken you to task for presenting unsound arguments. i suppose that we all have the nerve to ask the chest-thumping rulers of the sandbox WHY they make up the rules that they make up. and, when you give us weak explanations, we point this out. we all have to play by your rules, you have certainly made this much clear. while we all must appeal to your authority regarding what the rules are, none of us must do so regarding the appropriateness of those rules. some rules are better than others, and it just so happens that the reasons that you have shared with the world in the forums are rotten, and we have stated as much. [/quote] As you are free to complain about our interpretations in the forums, I am free to tell you that your own reasoning is unsound (which it is in some respects). [quote]as for your bit about the severity of the advantage gained by using BXR, you have made a messy conflation. first you talk about how much of an advantage is gained, and then you slip in that it provides a big unfair advantage. this conflation shows why your point here is flawed. i suspect, and i am sure that you would agree, that there would be the same level of discussion and debate if you were to announce that the pp-br combo was a glitch and was cheating. that an act gives one "such a gigantic advantage over normal play" does not do anything to prove that it is "an unfair advantage". since you make up all of the rules of mm, you can wrongly suppose that this is "probably the most damning evidence of all against it," but your assessment of the evidence is just plain wrong. [/quote] Wait... so something provides a gigantic advantage over normal play, and yet that doesn't help prove it is unfair advantage? If something is outside normal play, with normal play being defined as "fair" since everyone plays it, then when is a gigantic advantage NOT unfair? [quote]to make the nature of your error clear, let's apply your reasoning to you guys declaring that the pp-br combo is a glitch and is cheating (again with that pesky comparison). here are your words: "if it isn't such an unfair advantage, then why do you even care that we think it is cheating? Not one of you has even approached that subject." you should notice that your argument runs the same way when we contemplate the effects of you deeming the pp-br combo cheating. some people disagree with your view since it has the consequence of making combos (BXB, BYR, etc) that they use illegal in mm, and you claim that that this has something to do with the unfair nature of such combos. well, as we can see, some would have the same complaint if you were to prohibit a combo that you currently deem fair. to correct your error, you would just need to substitute your use of the word 'unfair' for 'big' or 'severe'. some people kick and scream at the notion of button glitches being prohibited because they do not want to do without a combo that provides them with a significant advantage, but this has nothing to so with whether the advantage is fair or unfair.[/quote] Except that the PP-BR is not a cheat, despite the lengths that you have erroneously gone to try and declare it be equivalent to that which we have declared a glitch. You seem to be basing your entire thought process on this idea that is at its core, flawed. I'm not saying the PP-BR is good game design, I think it is overpowered, myself (too much bang for not enough cost). But a flawed design is hugely different from a bug that bypasses such designed in limitations (like animation timings). Arguing that the PP-BR is equivalent to BXR is not going to work when the former is simply a questionable (but intended) design, and the later is an actual bug. This also goes back to the need for an actual informed judge to arbitrate and inform such processes. Of course, according to you, that's a circular argument, so I'm sure you're giddy at trying to point that out yet again. However, I'd rather base my rulings on an actual defined set of polices than a tenous connection that tries to compare things that aren't related (BXR and BR-PP). So you'll excuse me if I simply shrug my shoulders and and say "So?" at your response.

Your understanding of the situation is flawed. 1. There is a bug in the game's animation code that allows you to interrupt certain sequences of animation that you are not supposed to be able to interrupt. I'm not going to argue with the foolish comparison that tries to link a BR-PP combo to an animation glitch. I don't have that kind of time. 2. The cause of the bug is due to the way the game updates every "tick". 3. On a PAL TV (used in certain territories), the timing is different, making this bug and several others impossible to do. 4. Even if they could do it, the glitch is still considered an exploit of the game, and is cheating. I'm aware that some of you disagree, and are trying to point out that I should give reasons for rules. Well, no, I don't have to. At some point, there has to be a judge, an authority for a certain sandbox of play. I am not going to get into a discussion of whether our interpretation of the rules is correct, because that discussion doesn't matter. Here's what I do know, however: 1. Button glitching is cheating on Xbox Live. 2. Advocating cheating on the bungie.net forums gets you a lock and a ban. 3. I do not care if you think this is unfair. 4. If you do not like our interpretation of rules, tough. Go play somewhere else. 5. Bear in mind that if a BXR wasn't such a gigantic advantage over normal play, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because none of you would care. That is probably the most damning evidence of all against it - if it isn't such an unfair advantage, then why do you even care that we think it is cheating? Not one of you has even approached that subject. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sesquipadelian wow! i cannot believe that i am about to say this, but it seems that oc girl has used appropriate examples! i do not know what this pal stuff is all about, but it seems that all of these issues involve people not being able to do everything within the game (or cannot do things as well) merely because of the hardware that they use to play the game with. if people have such limitations (tvs that do not refresh properly, internet connections that are slow, controllers that do not function properly), then they have the option to use devices that allow them to perform the same actions with the same level of efficacy as others who are not hampered by their choice in electronics. [/quote]