[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Blasphemy [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The BS Police [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Blasphemy [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xbox Halo Guy But it is unfair because half the people who play halo don’t know about it.[/quote] Most of the people in Halo don't know about specific jumps, either.[/quote] Which is why it is Cheating (besides the point that it's a glitch.[/quote] Its a glitch and therefore cheating yes. But you can't use that "most people" don't know about it, just like most people don't know the respawn timers on weapons, certain jumping points on maps etc.[/quote] That stuff you can see and figure out yourself after awhile. The double shot glitch needs you to know of it’s existence first.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MikeDaKinger it isnt cheating you losers, youre just pissed cause you suck at them the content hasnt been modified in any way, you can call it cheating all you want but i will continue to use them and i will not get punished in any way to whatever[/quote] Are you -blam!- retarded? IT IS CHEATING. And I don't suck at them. I actually happen to know a superjump on every single map, on some maps I know about 6 or 7, and I can do them perfectly almost every time. I can BXR and BXB very well. I can do most of the glitches very well. I really don't think it should be considered cheating, but it is. And no, you will most likely not get banned for doing them. But it's still cheating, no matter how you look at it.

it isnt cheating you losers, youre just pissed cause you suck at them the content hasnt been modified in any way, you can call it cheating all you want but i will continue to use them and i will not get punished in any way to whatever

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The BS Police [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Blasphemy [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xbox Halo Guy But it is unfair because half the people who play halo don’t know about it.[/quote] Most of the people in Halo don't know about specific jumps, either.[/quote] Which is why it is Cheating (besides the point that it's a glitch.[/quote] Its a glitch and therefore cheating yes. But you can't use that "most people" don't know about it, just like most people don't know the respawn timers on weapons, certain jumping points on maps etc.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MikeDaKinger [url]http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1011823 [/url][/quote] Omg, what a comeback. Actually, that comeback was so hurtful, I think i'm gonna go sit in a corner and cry now and slit my wrists. Honestly, what was that? You act like you actually know what you're talking about.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Blasphemy [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xbox Halo Guy But it is unfair because half the people who play halo don’t know about it.[/quote] Most of the people in Halo don't know about specific jumps, either.[/quote] Which is why it is Cheating (besides the point that it's a glitch.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xbox Halo Guy But it is unfair because half the people who play halo don’t know about it.[/quote] Most of the people in Halo don't know about specific jumps, either.

But it is unfair because half the people who play halo don’t know about it.

Superbouncing is cheating, it's a glitch in the physics engine [b] Keyword: Glitch = Cheating[/b] And it actually took you that long to come up with that pitifull comeback? [Edited on 9/19/2006]

[url]http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1011823 [/url] [Edited on 9/19/2006]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MikeDaKinger stfu noob, i button glitch and superbounce all the time, and i have never modified any content. i dare them to ban me from matchmaking[/quote] Can you say Blacklist! Seriously Superbouncing is Cheating, and don't say the N word it is forbidden. [url=http://www.you.justgotowned.com/]And heres You MikeDaKinger[/url] [Edited on 9/19/2006]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MikeDaKinger [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N Yes, Super-Bouncing is cheating. Any Glitch is cheating. [/quote] stfu noob, i button glitch and superbounce all the time, and i have never modified any content. i dare them to ban me from matchmaking[/quote] Oh you're going to call him a noob, are you? Well guess what? Super-bouncing and exploiting any glitch IS cheating. Just because you don't get banned for it doesn't mean it's not cheating. Ask any one of the moderators and they'll tell you the same thing. Have you ever tried clicking the link in your sig? Because that's what just happened to you.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N Yes, Super-Bouncing is cheating. Any Glitch is cheating. [/quote] stfu noob, i button glitch and superbounce all the time, and i have never modified any content. i dare them to ban me from matchmaking

Achronos, if I may ask you a question or two. Did Bungie intend for a player to access areas such as the Top of the Zanzibar Fan, top of the Zanzibar Active Camo Tower, Top of the Scarab and other buildings on Turf (not through the barrier), on top of Teleporter Exit on Gemini, Behind the Containment base, etc? Areas that can be reached solely by pressing the Jump button and the crouch button. No cancelling animations required. If Bungie didn't intend for you to get onto such areas, would getting onto such areas be cheating? I can hardly see the justification if it were deemed cheating, as you are not cancelling any animations, and it is hardly considered a bug (in all but the Containment one, as that involves going past a game barrier) since there are no game barriers in my examples. It is simply clever jumping.... Also, is the "Double Jump" as it's usually known (Jumping on a player's head, jumping, having them jump, and you jumping again, gaining you a much larger jump) considered a game bug? **Not just simply using a teammate's head for a springboard**

Yes, Super-Bouncing is cheating. Any Glitch is cheating.

yes. but there is more to it then just yes

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Your argument is flawed in three fundamental ways. 1. Not everyone can button-glitch - users with PAL displays cannot perform all the same glitches the NTSC version can. [b]2. The terms of use of Xbox Live clearly state that exploitation of any bug (meaning you deliberately try and perform the bug) is cheating.[/b] 3. Bungie's code of conduct (that applies to our games as well) specifically mentions that we control everything. As we have interpreted the glitches involving weapon interruption to be cheating, it is.[/quote] So is super-bouncing cheating? [Edited on 9/19/2006]

deleted [Edited on 9/19/2006]

now for 6) - 9) 6) i have not avoided any points. i have made my points explicit and clear. you are mistaken in what i call circular. 7) no, it doesn't. there are lots of things that people do that may be outside of normal play, but that does not make it unfair. of all people, you should not tell us that the mere fact that something is done regularly within normal play entails that it is fair, or that something is unfair merely because it does not occur regularly within normal play. for months after the game was released nobody used the pp since it seemed useless. then, out of the blue, people started using the pp-br combo. prior to it becoming so popular it was outside of normal play and it provided players with "a gigantic advantage over normal play." does this do anything to prove that the pp-br combo provides an advantage that is unfair? of course not. sweep sniping is outside of normal play and it provides an advantage. does this mean that it is unfair? no. ducking while in a melee battle us outside of normal play. does this mean that it is unfair? i hope that you realize that the mere fact that an action is outside of normal play provides an advantage does nothing to prove that the act provides an unfair advantage. heck, highly skilled players probably do things outside of normal play in every single game, but that fact alone does not entail that they cheat. 8) again, if my claim that the pp-br combo is identical in kind with BYB and BYR then please tell us how. 9) this last bit is just adorable. you are declaring that you will be dismissive of my response before i have posted it and without even reading it. i'll bet that we all wish that we could simply ignore all evidence that shows that we are mistaken, but the rest of us are not so lucky.

I'm almost positive that in Halo 1, you had to wait for it to unfreeze before you could switch, could be wrong though. Regardless, none of this matters, this, like superbouncing, is all a matter of personal opinion and nothing more.

when you switch weapons, your plasma pistol suits in on your belt, why should it just freeze when its not in your hand, shouldnt it cool off when not being used?

But hasn't this whole PP/BR part been proven that it's [b]Not[/b] a glitch?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos 1) Pressing the same buttons does not equal the same actions, and just because the actions are similar (with Y instead of X) does not make the actions equal... However, swapping a weapon is not cancelling anything. Your weapon can continue to overheat in your pocket, for example. You can melee with one weapon and then switch to melee/shoot with another. There is no interruption of animation here. Switching weapons and reloading are not the same, the animations for each are not the same, and the rules for how they should work in the game are thus different. I don't see how that is complicated, nor I do see how you can draw a connection between them other than that you have to initiate them by pressing a button. [quote]i have shown that the logical structure between the 3 sets of actions is the same in each, so you may just declare that the comparison is foolish, but if you are going to do no more than rattle off unsubstantiated claims, then you may end up the one looking foolish.[/quote] 2) I doubt that. Your logical structure makes assumptions that are not true, calling into question the entire process. 3) Um... we have said this - on multiple occassions. Ninja 0n Fire said it, I've said it (in this thread and elsewhere), Shishka said it. [quote]i have a question: can people with pal sets use the pp-br combo? when the pp overheats, can they avoid the animation sequence by swapping to another weapon instantly, and then use thie secondary weapon more quickly than they could have had they not interupted the weapon animation sequence? if the answer is yes, then you are back to your familiar question begging stance of just declaring that you find it cheating.[/quote] 4) We've already covered this - the PP overheating animation sequence is meant to prevent the PP itself from firing again for a set period of time. You can't skip it. You are welcome to use another weapon. Y != X. Apples != oranges. 5) In every sporting event, every competition, there are rules. They are part of the environment. Furthermore, it isn't a circular argument to say that the reason a specific action is cheating is because a judge of the competition has ruled the action as cheating based on his interpretation of a general rule. For example, in baseball, you CANNOT argue with an umpire on a fair/foul, ball/strike, or safe/out call. It doesn't matter what the instant replay says, his word is law on those. The umpire determines, based on his observation and interpretation, whether a specific incident meets the critera set forth by the general rules. Saying it is circular just because the rules that he is using to interpret the specific action are also what give him the power to make the interpretation complete ignores the reality of environment you are playing in. If you want to call it circular, then fine, do so, but it DOES NOT change the validity of the judge's call. 6) Trying to weasel your way out of having to answer to that point by dismissing it as circular demonstrates your lack of understanding of the rules, and how to debate properly. 7) Wait... so something provides a gigantic advantage over normal play, and yet that doesn't help prove it is unfair advantage? If something is outside normal play, with normal play being defined as "fair" since everyone plays it, then when is a gigantic advantage NOT unfair? 8) Except that the PP-BR is not a cheat, despite the lengths that you have erroneously gone to try and declare it be equivalent to that which we have declared a glitch. You seem to be basing your entire thought process on this idea that is at its core, flawed. 9) So you'll excuse me if I simply shrug my shoulders and and say "So?" at your response. [/quote] my, my, my, you can type loads and loads of words and miss the crux of a debate. again, let's look at your errors in turn. 1) as i stated in the previous post, i am most concerned with BYB and BYR since you and ninja on fire have mentioned that you draw the cheating/not cheating distinction in the following way: BXB and BXR involve button combos that allow a player to interupt and avoid the delay caused by weapon animation sequences to perform another action with the same weapon, while the pp-br combo involves a combo that allows a player to interupt and avoid the delay caused by weapon animation sequences to perform another action with the secondary weapon. you guys hang your hats on the difference between using the same weapon faster and using a second weapon faster. here is what i have posted in the other thread in august: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sesquipadelian i have serious doubts in how you draw the cheating/noncheating distinction since you just presuppose that interupting weapons animation sequences is cheating (so far your argument is circular). please consider the following statements, and pay particularly close attention to the words in brackets. A) when people [use the pp-br combo], they choose to interupt the [overheating] animation and proceed to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon, in this case [fire] a second weapon. B) when people [are in a melee battle], they choose to interupt [melee recoil] animation and proceed to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon, in this case [melee with] a second weapon. C) when people [are in a melee battle and have a secondary br], they choose to interup [melee recoil] animation and proceed to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon, in this case [fire] a second weapon. as you can see, these three sets of actions are identical in form. if you wish to say that one of the three is cheating, then that claim would also apply to the other two. could you please do us a favor and tell us how it is cheating to interupt weapons animation by changing weapons? how does this give any play an unfair advantage over other players? [/quote] in this passage i clearly spell out and prove that people use the pp-br combo just as they could use BYB and BYR. in each case a player interupts a weapon animation sequence and proceeds to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon. in this post you have claimed that there is nothing the matter with the pp-br combo since it just involves swapping weapons. if that is the case, then what do you make of BYB and BYR? you stated that you did not see how i could draw a connection between the pp-br combo and BYB and BYR, and now i have made the nature of this connection clear. now if you wish to prove that this connection is misguided, then please have at it. as it stands, my claim that the 3 sets of actions are significantly similar remains unharmed. 2) please tell me how the logical structure between the 3 sets of actions is significantly dissimilar. 3) i have exchanged multiple pms with all 3 of you, and we have all bounced back and forth on these topics for months. for whatever reason, none of you mentioned this pal stuff before. but, if you did mention it in some other post, please excuse me for playing mm without reading every post in every thread in every forum. please notice that you did not answer my question. can people with pal sets use the pp-br combo? if they can interupt and avoid the weapon animation sequence to swap weapons and use a secondary weapon more quickly, then you still have not given a reason to prove the advantage gained to be unfair. if they cannot do this, then it would seem that the pp-br combo would also be unfair. 4) here you restate the distinction that you use. if it is okay to swap weapons and to use a second weapon more quickly by interupting (not waiting for the completion of) the primary weapon's animation sequence, then BYB and BYR should also be allowed. 5) you are right in this case. your example involving refs making calls is not circular since he is judging on the fly whether or not an event conforms with the rules or breaks them, or in your example, a ball is within the strike zone or is outside it. but, this example cannot provide you with much help. we are not talking about snap judgments made in the heat of action. when we think of calls made by a ref, after the fact we can examine the facts and determine whether or not the right call was made. if we were to have a discussion with the ref after the game, then he would surely tell us that he made the best judgment under the circumstances. however, you are not in the same situation as a ref making a call in the middle of a game. you guys can look over the terms of use and carefully craft the bungie cheating faq and you can consider the issue for months before you choose to type out your thoughts. also, if you would look over my posts, you will see that this is not why i am charging you with begging the question. you employ circular reasoning since you merely define 'using bugs' as 'cheating'. here is a rough version of the argument that you and others have presented: premise 1: button combos involve using glitches. premise 2: using glitches is cheating. conclusion: therefore, button combos are cheating. you beg the question since you presuppose that which you intend to prove. if you define 'using bugs' as 'cheating', then premise 2) and your conclusion have the same meaning, so your argument cannot justify your conclusion. this is why you beg the question, so please do not mistakenly believe that i charge you and others with employing circular reasoning for some other reason. if this is not the sort of argument that you and others use, then feel free to provide a sound argument (you may go the route of stating that using glitches provides an unfair advantage, and that this is what makes it cheating, but this won't do because then you will be begging the question by presupposing that the advantage gained is unfair).

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Blitz2o MKII I have read all 6 pages, and have come to this conclusion. the "bxr" "bxb" "rrx" is not modding, that is definatly true, as you do not use outer sources to manipulate game code/files. I [i]CAN[/i] understand it as "cheating", though I dont see why Bungie makes such a big deal about a game flaw that THEY made. I mean, I think it shows bad character, "We made a mistake, so you pay for it". then of course I can also understand how Bungie says that said players dont have to use it, but I think bungie should know its players by now. they will disect a game to the furthest limits possible... also, there is something very simple they could do to fix this, and end all this pointless argueing. take 20 minutes and create an update that disables the use of pressing "X" to stop the animation sequence during a combo. and put a stop to this maddness. Another point of view, "my point of view" is this, A spartan "technically" should be able to do the BXR, etc...because in real life they would move that fast, so I think in the Halo universe it makes perfect sense.[/quote] not game flaw, game glitch. big difference, besides the game was done in 9 months, what do you want.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Blitz2o MKII take 20 minutes and create an update that disables the use of pressing "X" to stop the animation sequence during a combo. [/quote] WTH? Bungie's programmers must be talented! That's incredible!

I have read all 6 pages, and have come to this conclusion. the "bxr" "bxb" "rrx" is not modding, that is definatly true, as you do not use outer sources to manipulate game code/files. I [i]CAN[/i] understand it as "cheating", though I dont see why Bungie makes such a big deal about a game flaw that THEY made. I mean, I think it shows bad character, "We made a mistake, so you pay for it". then of course I can also understand how Bungie says that said players dont have to use it, but I think bungie should know its players by now. they will disect a game to the furthest limits possible... also, there is something very simple they could do to fix this, and end all this pointless argueing. take 20 minutes and create an update that disables the use of pressing "X" to stop the animation sequence during a combo. and put a stop to this maddness. Another point of view, "my point of view" is this, A spartan "technically" should be able to do the BXR, etc...because in real life they would move that fast, so I think in the Halo universe it makes perfect sense.