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9/19/2006 10:36:41 PM
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Why button-glitching isn't cheating
There have been many debates about button glitching and whether or not it's cheating. I would have to say no, it's not. Here's why.
Cheating is defined as having an unfair advantage. Modding is a good example of this. One person in the game has super-human powers, with automatic BR's and the ability to fly while the rest are normal. Standbying is cheating because one player can manipulate the lag to his advantage. Bridging is cheating because it gives host to the unworthy. And button glitching is cheating....why?
In all of the examples listed above, only a select few people have the advantage. In button glitching, how ever, any one can do them at any given time.
Many people go off at this point and say "Any one can standby" or "Any one can mod". While this is true, it is still cheating. From what I can tell, only one person can bridge theirself host at a time, and only one person can have their mods active at a time. Therefore, it's an unfair advantage. But with button-glitching, anyone in the game can do them. It's not reserved to just one person per game. Your only limit is of the technical knowledge of the game engine.
With luck, this won't turn into a flame war. Please read this entire post before replying, please.
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The PP/BR combo is absolutely nothing like BXR or any other button combination that exploits a bug by avoiding weapon state animations. The PP/BR combo [b]DOES NOT AVOID OR INTERRUPT A WEAPON ANIMATION, THE ANIMATION STILL PLAYS WHILE THE WEAPON IS IN YOUR POCKET[/b]. BXR [b]COMPLETELY CANCELS AN ANIMATION RESULTING IN SUBVERTING AN INTENDED DELAY, GIVING THE EXPLOITER AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE[/b]. It's unfair because only players who exploit bugs benefit from it. Whether their opponent [b]can[/b] do it is [b]COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT[/b]. Are the words making any more sense now that they're large? No? Do you require someone to hold you hand and write you an essay in retort to every little question or conditional argument you want to bring up? Well that's just not going to happen... if you weren't aware, our job isn't to sit here on the forums repeating ourselves over and over to the same exact people who refuse to listen even when we spell it out clearly. When you use XBL you are bound by their terms of use. If you really want to skew your interpretation of the terms of use to fit your side of the argument, that's your choice. Regardless of that, aside from anything XBL has to say, Bungie controls matchmaking and we say what is or isn't allowed in our sandbox. We've given ample reasoning dozens of times to the same people, who seem to believe that semantics are going to change the truth... they won't. The truth is, exploiting bugs (button-glitching, for those who want to candy coat it) while you're in the matchmaking environment is cheating. It's not debatable, it's not open to interpretation. This thread is done, if anyone who participated in this thread decides to create a new thread on this subject, they had better have read everything that Achronos and I have said, because if I have to repeat myself to the same individuals anymore... at that point I will interpret their actions as intentionally malicious and it won't end with a simple thread lock.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sesquipadelian also, i am starting to doubt that you actually believe what you are stating and i think that you are just trying to bait people by telling us to read the terms of use. i have asked you to tell us what the tou tell us, and i have asked to to tell us where they state that all glitches are cheating, but you refuse to come to grips with reality. [/quote] I have always seen you as an intelligent person sesquipadelian, but sometimes I think you just like to debate for debate sake. Achronos posted 100 times before and at least four times on this very thread telling you in very direct words that Bungie considers button glitching cheating. Period. End of story. Now we can discuss all we want in [b]theory[/b] whether Bungie is wrong to tell us BXR'ing is cheating. But the bottom line is that it..........is..........cheating. This is Bungie's world and if they say the sky is purple with pink polka dots, than the sky is purple with pink polka dots. Which bring us back to the TOA that we all agreed to. Bungie says button glitching falls under the "manipulation" portion of the TOA. This is all you need to know. So why do you continue to argue?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] l iam117 l [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N That's why they won't be in Halo 3. [/quote] They made sure they took the BLB out of Halo 2, but look how many there are in Halo 2! There'll be some in Halo 3. It's just how long before they're discovered.[/quote] awwww man! BLB was one of my favs!
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heres the code of conduct for xbox live [url]http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/codeofconduct.htm [/url] on the 9th bullet point it states [b] Don't cheat in a game unless cheats have been deliberately enabled. [/b] and achronos says the glitches/cheats werent deliberate, so you are violating the code of conduct [Edited on 9/20/2006]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N That's why they won't be in Halo 3. [/quote] They made sure they took the BLB out of Halo 2, but look how many there are in Halo 2! There'll be some in Halo 3. It's just how long before they're discovered.
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Naw, Sesq. I'm not the one having a hard time understanding- you are. The PP/BR combo is not a glitch because it was intentionally put in the game (to counter the difficulty of Elites on Legendary.) The other stuff that involves any Button combo or Super-Bounce is a Glitch because it was discovered as a flaw in the Havoc Physics engine. A flaw that can't be patched (otherwise, it would be gone and we wouldn't have to worry about it.) The reason that it's cheating is because in the Terms of Use, it clearly states that using it as an unfair advantage is against the XBL Rules. So Super-Bouncing to get into a base isn't fair, and dropping the Oddball through the map to ensure a victory isn't fair either. Now the Button Combos aren't fair because not everyone can do them. Some have different settings, others simply don't know about them. It's not outlined as a techique- but classified as a problem that should have solved. That's why they won't be in Halo 3.
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I don't agree with button combos because they alter the intended balance of the game, but it is true that anyone could use them and the justification is a little dodgy. [Edited on 9/20/2006]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N The unfair advantage part comes in when you have someone who knows how to do it, and that person uses it unfairly against those who don't know how. [/quote] here is the latest circular argument provided by iceman: an unfair advantage is one that is used unfairly. thanks for making this clear. or, if you are not making this argument, then maybe you are trying to prove that an advantage is unfair merely because one person knows about it while another person does not. if this is the case, then i suppose that i have an unfair advantage over you because i can read and understand a statement in the tou and i can think rationally while you cannot. also, i am starting to doubt that you actually believe what you are stating and i think that you are just trying to bait people by telling us to read the terms of use. i have asked you to tell us what the tou tell us, and i have asked to to tell us where they state that all glitches are cheating, but you refuse to come to grips with reality.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sesquipadelian but, as i have shown, the reasons presented by folks who argue that all button combos are cheating are bad reasons. for whatever reason, these folks are not able to provide a sound argument to justify their claims, nor can they understand objections to their view, nor can they provide strong objections to the opposing view. [/quote] Terms. Of. Use. Read them.
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The unfair advantage part comes in when you have someone who knows how to do it, and that person uses it unfairly against those who don't know how. Like Super-Bouncing. Did you know there is one on Relic? Someone used it to bounce up to the Flag spot. That's not fair.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quackers Indeed. But the ToU specifies that what is forbidden is the exploitation of a glitch to gain an unfair advantage, and with 'secret' map features like the ones I mentioned it's rather difficult to define the glitch as unfair because some might not be aware of it. It's a logical minefield here. I know we may not be getting anywhere, but I find this an interestng subject. It's like video game philosophy, or something.[/quote] i find this interesting for the same reason. both sides surely disagree, and both sides have reasons that are supposed to support their claims. but, as i have shown, the reasons presented by folks who argue that all button combos are cheating are bad reasons. for whatever reason, these folks are not able to provide a sound argument to justify their claims, nor can they understand objections to their view, nor can they provide strong objections to the opposing view. to all of the folks who think that this debate is one that cannot be settled, i am sad to say that i agree. as long as people just throw around opinions without rational justification, and as long as people are unable to grasp the logical consequences of their claims, many of the participants of this debate will be wrong, will be unjustified, and will be ignorant of their errors.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quackers [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N And even if they could, it wasn't intended to be in the game, and those who don't know about Glitches (as opposed to weapons) are at a disadvantage.[/quote] How is not knowing about the glitch different to not knowing that you can lower the bridge to the fan in zanzibar? Or shoot down stalactites to splatter someone in waterworks? Because these things are not in the manual. So how is not knowing about these any fairer than not being aware of a glitch? [/quote] Because those things that you mentioned where intended to be [b]in the game.[/b] The Glitches weren't. That's why they're [i]glitches[/i].[/quote] Indeed. But the ToU specifies that what is forbidden is the exploitation of a glitch to gain an unfair advantage, and with 'secret' map features like the ones I mentioned it's rather difficult to define the glitch as unfair because some might not be aware of it. It's a logical minefield here. I know we may not be getting anywhere, but I find this an interestng subject. It's like video game philosophy, or something.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] l iam117 l [quote]Definitions of glitch on the Web: * A slang term for [u]an unexpected problem[/u], found in either the software or hardware, which usually [u]does not occur in a regular pattern.[/u][/quote] It's something that wasn't intended to be in the game.[/quote] Quoted for Truth.
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[quote]Definitions of glitch on the Web: * A slang term for [u]an unexpected problem[/u], found in either the software or hardware, which usually [u]does not occur in a regular pattern.[/u][/quote] It's something that wasn't intended to be in the game.
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Anything that wasn't intended to be put in the game (and then later discovered) is a glitch. Simple.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N Because those things that you mentioned where intended to be [b]in the game.[/b] The Glitches weren't. That's why they're [i]glitches[/i].[/quote] nope, you have just made the same kind of mistake by begging the question but now you are defining another sort of act as cheating. here is your latest move: unintended actions = glitches = cheating as long as you presuppose that glitches=cheating you are not backing up your claim. please stop presenting such fallacious arguments. you would be no less justified if you were to state that you are right since everything that you claim is correct, therefore you are correct. this is why circular arguments fail to prove anything. no matter how many times you post that you do not wish to participate in this debate, we all know that you are going to type out nonsense every few minutes. before you make your next post, google 'circular argument fallacy' or 'logical fallacies' and read the explanation of circular arguments. not only is your latest argument fallacious, but it hinges upon a suspect premise. why on earth should all unintended actions be considered unfair or cheating? also, do you have a list of all of the intended action in h2 mm? is stack jumping to jump onto higher surfaces intended? is the pp burst's ability to go around corners and through solid objects intended? is being able to duck to avoid a melee intended? are grenade jumps intended?
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circules here people just circules
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I know. :D Well I guess that means you have to fight on one side of this argument then. Which one will you choose: Pro button combos or Anti button combos?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] l iam117 l [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl AK PrOdiGy lx Also the only reason the bungie staff don't like button combos is because they suck at them Exhibit A: [b][url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=44PFdB4eRGU]Ninja 0n Fire[/url][/b][/quote] [quote][url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=75 37224&postRepeater1-p=2#7545124][b]Posted by:[/b] Ninja 0n Fire No, I did not ban him. It was a custom game, I really don't care what people do in customs. Matchmaking is a completely different environment and people should have the common sense and decency to not abuse or exploit bugs while playing against random opponents. Feedback should be used for things like that, though people should be aware that I and other Bungie folks play matchmaking regularly and if we witness extremely inappropriate behavior, we reserve the right to remove you from the matchmaking environment.[/url][/quote] Then again, that slightly off-sets what Shishka and other "non-button combo" fans say when they preach doing them on any part of Live is cheating. Meh. <3 N0F[/quote] Hehe, that was mine! I'm famous!
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint The bottom line: [hr] [i]in your opinion[/i], leave feedback! You don't need anyone telling you what to think, decide for yourselves...[/quote] That's what I'm trying to say, Saint. No one's opinion is going to be changed- those who think it's cheating will consider it cheating and those who don't will keep doing it. Simple. I don't know why this continuing to be debated, because frankly, it's going nowhere. [/quote] I've followed that from day one. :( I leave feedback for typical "cheating" (Modding, Standby, etc.) but not for Button Combos. That's my choice, and that's what I want.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quackers [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N And even if they could, it wasn't intended to be in the game, and those who don't know about Glitches (as opposed to weapons) are at a disadvantage.[/quote] How is not knowing about the glitch different to not knowing that you can lower the bridge to the fan in zanzibar? Or shoot down stalactites to splatter someone in waterworks? Because these things are not in the manual. So how is not knowing about these any fairer than not being aware of a glitch? [/quote] Because those things that you mentioned where intended to be [b]in the game.[/b] The Glitches weren't. That's why they're [i]glitches[/i].
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saint The bottom line: [hr] [i]in your opinion[/i], leave feedback! You don't need anyone telling you what to think, decide for yourselves...[/quote] That's what I'm trying to say, Saint. No one's opinion is going to be changed- those who think it's cheating will consider it cheating and those who don't will keep doing it. Simple. I don't know why this continuing to be debated, because frankly, it's going nowhere.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartakus14 If a person was shooting at another and his gun overheated(PP), he would drop it and switch to another gun(Y). From there he would comtinue to shoot at his opponent(R). Once his first gun cooled down he would pick it back up and start firing. there. i did it. now shut up. this should just be closed.[/quote] you did nothing. you just described what people do when they use th combo. thank you so much for such a lucid description of what everyone already knows. i claim that the pp-br combo is identical to BYB and BYR, and here is the logical form of all 3. please consider the following statements, and pay particularly close attention to the words in brackets. A) when people [use the pp-br combo], they choose to interupt the [overheating] animation and proceed to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon, in this case [fire] a second weapon. B) when people [are in a melee battle], they choose to interupt [melee recoil] animation and proceed to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon, in this case [melee with] a second weapon. C) when people [are in a melee battle and have a secondary br], they choose to interup [melee recoil] animation and proceed to perform another action more quickly with a second weapon, in this case [fire] a second weapon. as you can see, these three sets of actions are identical in form. if you wish to say that one of the three is cheating, then that claim would also apply to the other two. could you please do us a favor and tell us how it is cheating to interupt weapons animation by changing weapons? how does this give any play an unfair advantage over other players? all you did was tell us the form of A). again, thank you. now, if you wish to prove me wrong, you must show us how A) is different than eother B) or C). since you have not done this, and since all that you have done is tell us that people swap weapons when they use the pp-br combo, you have not proven anything aside from your ability to jump to bogus conclusions.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ICEMAN ASSASS1N And even if they could, it wasn't intended to be in the game, and those who don't know about Glitches (as opposed to weapons) are at a disadvantage.[/quote] How is not knowing about the glitch different to not knowing that you can lower the bridge to the fan in zanzibar? Or shoot down stalactites to splatter someone in waterworks? Because these things are not in the manual. So how is not knowing about these any fairer than not being aware of a glitch?
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The bottom line: [hr]If you think something is cheating, leave cheating feedback. You can BXR with PAL TVs. Anyone can BXR at any time, so I don't leave feedback for those particular glitches; that's my opinion. If using BXR is cheating, [i]in your opinion[/i], leave feedback! You don't need anyone telling you what to think, decide for yourselves...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl AK PrOdiGy lx [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] l iam117 l [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xl AK PrOdiGy lx Also the only reason the bungie staff don't like button combos is because they suck at them Exhibit A: [b][url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=44PFdB4eRGU]Ninja 0n Fire[/url][/b][/quote] [quote][url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=75 37224&postRepeater1-p=2#7545124][b]Posted by:[/b] Ninja 0n Fire No, I did not ban him. It was a custom game, I really don't care what people do in customs. Matchmaking is a completely different environment and people should have the common sense and decency to not abuse or exploit bugs while playing against random opponents. Feedback should be used for things like that, though people should be aware that I and other Bungie folks play matchmaking regularly and if we witness extremely inappropriate behavior, we reserve the right to remove you from the matchmaking environment.[/url][/quote] Then again, that slightly off-sets what Shishka and other "non-button combo" fans say when they preach doing them on any part of Live is cheating. Meh. <3 N0F[/quote] Really? So he's a hypocrit then?[/quote] I'm not saying that. I just think it gives a slightly more "clouded" message when people are arguing the legality of button combos on [b]Live[/b] (not just MatchMaking).
