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10/2/2011 8:39:28 PM
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Why wont people understand elites are NOT stronger than spartans!!
Honestly im seeing this thousands of times, people saying how elites are faster, stronger and smarter than spartans. Hell people even go around saying that they can be compared to a monkey(spartans) and a gorilla(elite). Thats just some huge steaming hot pile of smelly BS. Its been confirmed soo many times in the books. Fall of reach john was struggling with an elite in hand to hand combat he said himself the alien was as strong as him. If the stupid elite fanboys are right why didn't the elite just pick john up and rip him in half with its bare hands or claws whatever its called? Or just beat john to death? Why was the elite struggling?
In first strike john takes a much higher ranked elite on in hand to hand combat a spec ops leader. The elite has an energy sword, john is out of ammo, his shields aren't working? Easy kill? No it still gets its ass kicked. Again they struggle with each other, their strength being equal. But master chief was more craftier and smarter and was able to find a way to kill. Plus if you have a copy of first strike please pick it up and read that part because john did some heavy damage to that elite of course since they're equal john also got some pretty bad wounds too.
Now in cole protoccol which confirms that spartans and elites are equal is when spartan jai-006 takes on THEL VADAMEE one of the best elites the covenant ever had. Thel admits himself that jai was completely equal to him. I don't have the copies if these books right now but please post the parts that I'm talking about so people can see! Thel was shocked that a spartan could completely match him in strength, speed etc. He even suffered a few injuries and broken bones.
Hell an advantage that spartans have that people don't ever remember this one is that spartans have nearly unbreakable bones from their augmentations. Remember? Their skeletal structure is virtually unbreakable. Its in halo wiki and fall if reach. But elites don't have as super hard bones you know why? Because they've had their bones broken before and it didn't take ALOT of force to get it broken yet spartans have jumped from orbit and they would suffer considerable damage yes, but barely broken bones. All fred got was a I think a broken arm and leg? Elites would've died doing that.
So basically in hand to hand combat elites can't break a spartans skull or arm or legs ir ribs. Makes it harder for them.
Not only that spartans have beaten elites so many times its not even funny. No its not a plot shield that's protecting them jesus christ no but its tactics which in every engagement in canon that I've seen spartans have better tactics. Plus no elite could even touch kelly in hand to hand because she's so damned fast.
Now am I saying that elites can NEVER kill spartans no? Noble six and many other spartans have died at the hands of elites. Its just not going to be easy in any way at all. And I really -blam!- hate it when people start arguing that elites are tougher, stronger and faster than humans. Look were not talking about regular humans, we are talking about superhuman, genetically superior armored human soldiers who've been trained to fight ever since they were six. And if you keep arguing then you don't know much about spartans.
Besides who would you rather want having your back john, kelly, fred or joshua or a squad of elites?
Me? Spartans baby. Still I like elites. But I hate people who worship them and say they can kill any spartan. Even a field marshall or honor guard would have trouble killing a spartan. They can still sure as hell do it but it will be hard for them too.
Sorry for the long read but I'm just trying to get this through peoples thick skulls.
EDIT: Can someone please post the examples I mentioned and some information from halo wiki for reference? If you can thank you that'd be great.
[Edited on 10.02.2011 12:57 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga The simple fact is that a plot shield determines the abilitys of both of them.[/quote] You sound like you are under the impression that the Elites should be better, thus the Spartans require a plot shield. And vice versa the Elites are being deliberately dumbed down for sake of plot.[/quote] Not just the Elites, Some Spartans as well, my opinion is there equal. But If they are equal, They vastly outnumber the Spartans. So my main gripe is in some instances they are made to look like brain dead morons. Like in the case of the Halo Wars cut scene where they madly rush the three Spartans with zero cohesion and tactics. According to the fiction there supposed to be "Brilliant Tacticians" but frankly we never see that for plot purposes.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga The simple fact is that a plot shield determines the abilitys of both of them.[/quote] You sound like you are under the impression that the Elites should be better, thus the Spartans require a plot shield. And vice versa the Elites are being deliberately dumbed down for sake of plot.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TwilightJak365 A forum goer the changes another's comment to fit his opinion usually indicates he's asshurt. ;)[/quote] And a forum goer who resorts to using ad Hominem usually indicates that he cannot refute another persons argument and so retaliates in the only way he can: through a childish remark like that. I don't care if you think I am asshurt because that is really the only thing that you can say. [quote]Why do I think Elites are stronger? Mainly because of the 99.8% of Spartan fans I know get asshurt when I state my opinion and assume I'm ghey for preferring Elites over Spartans. I base a fictional on it's fans, and if if its fanbase is horrendous, I assume my favourite race is better. All Elite fans I've met were polite, respected Spartans until the "Elites are ghey" comment came up.[/quote] In other words, "Elites are stronger becuase I don't like Spartan fans". If that isn't the fattest non-sequitur you have read on this board then I don't know what is.[/quote] I actually applaud the fact that you changed my post to fit the point you were trying to make. But in reality you also proved mine. The simple fact is that a plot shield determines the abilitys of both of them. The Death of Emile served the plot of Halo Reach. And the Sangheli who had his neck snapped served the plot of its respective media (Not sure what) Look how many enemy's were killed by The Arbiter. He slaughtered The Flood alone in a few missions, aswell as defeat Spartan Jai and the physicality superior Brute Cheiftan Tartarus. Those enemys died to serve the plot because killing The Arbiter would be bad storytelling, It would be like the Cheif dieing to Guilty Spark in Halo 3. again bad storytelling.
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qirahs, What I just looked up said Master Chief is 130 kilos without his armor, not 179. Also, IIRC, those are copy-pasted from the Beastarium, which came out around with halo 3. You also ignore a major piece of evidence, which is the gravity of the worlds in which they grew up. The Elites come from a planet with gravity higher then earth-like, so they naturally are stronger and faster then humans. Has the comment not always been "Spartans are equal to an Elite while in armor."?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TwilightJak365 A forum goer the changes another's comment to fit his opinion usually indicates he's asshurt. ;)[/quote] And a forum goer who resorts to using ad Hominem usually indicates that he cannot refute another persons argument and so retaliates in the only way he can: through a childish remark like that. I don't care if you think I am asshurt because that is really the only thing that you can say. [quote]Why do I think Elites are stronger? Mainly because of the 99.8% of Spartan fans I know get asshurt when I state my opinion and assume I'm ghey for preferring Elites over Spartans. I base a fictional on it's fans, and if if its fanbase is horrendous, I assume my favourite race is better. All Elite fans I've met were polite, respected Spartans until the "Elites are ghey" comment came up.[/quote] In other words, "Elites are stronger becuase I don't like Spartan fans". If that isn't the fattest non-sequitur you have read on this board then I don't know what is.
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As an average, no they're not really much stronger or anything, they're just about equal. Now there might be some Spartans much stronger than the average Elite, or an Elite that's much stronger than the average Spartan, but as a whole the two groups are practically equal. Comparing on an individual basis is the only time one can or will be stronger than the other, and even then that only applies to the individuals in question and not the whole.
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Arguing which species is superior is uselss if you are going to base it off books or games. Both sides can gather ample evidence supporting their cause. Bungie has always hyped up the spartans, at least in the manual books, but has always ended up trolling them in the games and in the books. They also have had a romantic love interest with the elites since CE (they were the first aliens they designed after all), thus all the special focus on them. If you guys are going to argue which is stronger (as in physical strength) then you need to look at from a physiological and mechanical point of view. There have already been quite a few threads on spartan II's weights, and currently, the most recent source of canon (located on 343's site right here: [url=http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/intel/related/text/uncategorized/cb76d627-7a97-45c0-afd5-612e0d9d6302]Spartan II without armor[/url] and the [url=http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/intel/related/text/sangheili/215feec6-8bc4-4832-8774-9f48ec515f56]elites without armor[/url]) give the spartan II's weight as about 70 lbs heavier than elites. Coupled with their muscle and bone density (which grants more fiber leverage power) it is clear that the spartan II's have a physical advantage over the elites even wihtout armor (and that is not taking in to account their reaction time, which is 3 times faster than the average human). (On a side note, these sources I gave you are the most recent, and are on the offical Halo website from 343i, according to the canon hierarchy, this source resolves all others before it including the fall of reach so there is no point agruing with me about what one novel states compared to another concerning weight.) Whether you saw this "advantage" in the games or novels is a moot point, which could be attributed to the novel writers not having this knowledge beforehand, or bungie simply not caring enough about canon and simple physiology. [Edited on 10.03.2011 5:18 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sebs117 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE In "The Pillar Of Autumn" We see the Zealot that kills Emile hold him in the air with one hand, that's strong enough in my opinion, considering how a Spartan in MJOLNIR armor weighs 1,000 pounds, besides, Elites don't need augmentations to be strong.[/quote] Not to say lifting a Spartan isn't an impressive feat, but Spartan IIs weigh 1000 pounds, not Spartan III's.[/quote] MJOLNIR armor weighs 1000 pounds, not the spartans. Besides, even if that was the case where's your proof on that Spartan III's are lighter?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE In "The Pillar Of Autumn" We see the Zealot that kills Emile hold him in the air with one hand, that's strong enough in my opinion, considering how a Spartan in MJOLNIR armor weighs 1,000 pounds, besides, Elites don't need augmentations to be strong.[/quote] Not to say lifting a Spartan isn't an impressive feat, but Spartan IIs weigh 1000 pounds, not Spartan III's.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga[/quote] ^ Another person who does not see the pointlessness of their post. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga Arguing a plot shield doesn't protect Elites is frankly a fallacy. For instance look at the death's of the Elites in First Strike and Helljumper. The two Elites on Ascendant Justice that were killed by a single burst of AR fire. What happens when Arbiter is shot in the chest? his shields deflect it for game play reasons (Unless there down). The Elite Minor in Helljumper was caught off guard and had his neck snapped by an ODST with a barbed wire. Where was his "Sangheili" reflexes there? surely he knew the ODST was there because of motion tracking? Point is, If the Elite John confronted in First Strike was as easy as that, that would be bad storytelling. Plot Shield determines the ability's of Elites.[/quote] All these arguments from plot shield and "Elites were dumbed down to make the good guys win" all have no logic whatsoever.[/quote]A forum goer the changes another's comment to fit his opinion usually indicates he's asshurt. ;)
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Why do I think Elites are stronger? Mainly because of the 99.8% of Spartan fans I know get asshurt when I state my opinion and assume I'm ghey for preferring Elites over Spartans. I base a fictional on it's fans, and if if its fanbase is horrendous, I assume my favourite race is better. All Elite fans I've met were polite, respected Spartans until the "Elites are ghey" comment came up.
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In "The Pillar Of Autumn" We see the Zealot that kills Emile hold him in the air with one hand, that's strong enough in my opinion, considering how a Spartan in MJOLNIR armor weighs 1,000 pounds, besides, Elites don't need augmentations to be strong.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga[/quote] ^ Another person who does not see the pointlessness of their post. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga Arguing a plot shield doesn't protect Elites is frankly a fallacy. For instance look at the death's of the Elites in First Strike and Helljumper. The two Elites on Ascendant Justice that were killed by a single burst of AR fire. What happens when Arbiter is shot in the chest? his shields deflect it for game play reasons (Unless there down). The Elite Minor in Helljumper was caught off guard and had his neck snapped by an ODST with a barbed wire. Where was his "Sangheili" reflexes there? surely he knew the ODST was there because of motion tracking? Point is, If the Elite John confronted in First Strike was as easy as that, that would be bad storytelling. Plot Shield determines the ability's of Elites.[/quote] All these arguments from plot shield and "Elites were dumbed down to make the good guys win" all have no logic whatsoever. [Edited on 10.02.2011 3:18 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Raviruga Arguing a plot shield doesn't protect Spartans is frankly a fallacy. For instance look at the death's of the Spartans of Noble Team. B320- Kat was killed by a single shot too the head. What happens when Master Cheif is shot in the head? his shields deflect it for game play reasons (Unless there down). A239- Emile was caught off guard and impaled by a Sangheli Energy blade. Where was his "Spartan" reflexes there? surely he knew the Elite was there because of motion tracking? Point is, If the Elite John struggled with in First Strike had killed him, that would be bad storytelling. Plot Shield determines the ability's of Spartans.[/quote] Elite wasn't moving in a manner that would cause it to appear on motion tracker.
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Arguing a plot shield doesn't protect Spartans is frankly a fallacy. For instance look at the death's of the Spartans of Noble Team. B320- Kat was killed by a single shot too the head. What happens when Master Cheif is shot in the head? his shields deflect it for game play reasons (Unless there down). A239- Emile was caught off guard and impaled by a Sangheli Energy blade. Where was his "Spartan" reflexes there? surely he knew the Elite was there because of motion tracking? Point is, If the Elite John struggled with in First Strike had killed him, that would be bad storytelling. Plot Shield determines the ability's of Spartans.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron However, they are right if the spartan is out of armor.[/quote] Not necessarily. Elites are lighter in weight and also use power armour to bolster their strength and reflexes.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron However, they are right if the spartan is out of armor. OP, you are exaggerating it as well. stronger does not = able to rip a spartan in half.[/quote] Well yes I did exaggerate a bit but why didn't the elite beat john half to death? That's what I meant.
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I also agree on the fact of being equal. Even both of their backgrounds are equal. Both Spartans and Elites have been trained to fight from a very young age. Even their motivation is relatively equal. The Spartans are fighting with a fixed thought: save Humanity from certain destruction. Elites have an opposite thought but it is equivalent in strength: destroy Humanity to please the gods. Although they are completely opposite: one offensive and religious, the other defensive and desperate. This really shows how equal both factions are.
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honestly if anybody thinks that elites are stronger than spartans they are absolute idiots
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However, they are right if the spartan is out of armor. OP, you are exaggerating it as well. stronger does not = able to rip a spartan in half.
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A Spartan II and an Elite are equal in strength. It has been stated in ink.
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Because they either don't know all the facts or are angsty teenagers hiding in their bedrooms hating on Humanity by trying to associate with a fictional alien race.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II I'm sorry but your First strike example is biased as that Elite was shot in the back repeatly by Johnsons and Locklears ARs that blew a bullet hole into his chest.That example is unfair But i agree with your point: Sangheili=Spartans[/quote] But john was still able to damage the elite himself in hand to hand but so did the elite. See? Equal. If elites were better spartans would've been dead a Loong time ago. Also chief would've been useless to us and we would all be dead, if he couldn't match a single a single elite minor.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh Fall of Reach states word for word that Elites are as strong as Spartans. Not stronger of course, but as strong. Edit: nvm, thats what you were trying to prove. Sorry.[/quote] Not just fall of reach, even first strike and cole protoccol confirms this word for mother-blam!- word they're equal. None is stronger than the other EXCEPT huge spartans like jorge or sam who just might, I'm not sure and this hasn't been confirmed might just be a little bit stronger since an average spartan matches about any elite so a bigger stronger spartan is probably stronger. Its actually common sense.
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I'm sorry but your First strike example is biased as that Elite was shot in the back repeatly by Johnsons and Locklears ARs that blew a bullet hole into his chest.That example is unfair But i agree with your point: Sangheili=Spartans
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Fall of Reach states word for word that Elites are as strong as Spartans. Not stronger of course, but as strong. Edit: nvm, thats what you were trying to prove. Sorry. [Edited on 10.02.2011 12:44 PM PDT]
